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it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. started today, accustoming.com. >> i've had to go montgomery and tokyo and this is cnn cnn breaking news welcome to cnn's breaking news coverage of the historic donald trump hush money trial. >> i'm wolf blitzer in washington and boris sanchez is outside the courthouse in manhattan i'm this de of the trial, the first witness his nearing the end of his testimony, david pecker is facing redirect by the prosecution after several hours of cross by trump's defense attorney. much of that cross detailed the former tabloid executives history of purchasing stories so that he could bury them boris and right

now, wolff, the court is taking a break for lunch. >> the judge instructing the jury, as he always does, to not discuss the case outside of the courtroom de as the first witness testimony, as you said, well, if nearing the end, the defense trying to highlight a discrepancies and david pecker's testimony, they included what was said during a 2017 white house meeting between donald trump and the former publisher of the national enquirer. you saw that image there of pecker at the white house. we have seen in chief legal affairs correspondent paul read with us paula's so far, the center of pecker's testimony has been his personal relationship with donald trump. >> yeah. the question of whether he used that personal relationship to suppress stories to help check get elected. the reason prosecutors chose david pecker as the first witness doesn't really speak to the accusations at the heart of the criminal charges here, but it sets the stage for the idea that there was a concern sorted effort that michael cohen and then candidate trump

were involved in. do you suppress negative stories? is david pecker works question about that by prosecutors, then trump lawyers got got to crack at him a little bit yesterday, and then mostly today and they had a few goals. what are the primary one though, was to establish that this wasn't something special that they did just to help trump get the white house in 20 16, that this was business as usual, that they suppress stories for arnold schwarzenegger and more walberg's. that was a big focus of their, of their cross-examination. the prosecutor is europe now, they're trying to do a look little bit of repair. they're pointing out that. okay. you did this for other people, but did you pay $150,000 for an arnold schwarzenegger story the same way you paid karen mcdougal to suppress her story about an alleged affair, well, no, we didn't so they're trying to repair some with the damage to the case that may or may not have been done when the defense was asking david pecker questions, let's walk through some of those inconsistencies that we mentioned a moment ago. there's a moment where they basically asked david pecker if

his memory was okay, right? >> yeah. because there has been details here and there that he has not gotten exactly right. but we're also talking about meetings, things that happened over a decade ago so that that is certainly something that you want to do with the defense to plant the seeds of maybe doubt about some of the things that he said. but then there were more significant issues that they had to resolve in terms of things that he said during an fbi interview and how that was different than what he said on the stand and explaining that out let's talk about the defense teams questioning of pecker regarding his agreement with the fec because we got really into the weeds of you. >> were watching earlier you saw we get really into the weeds about the details of disagreement. what was the defense trying to do? do their by bringing that up. >> so this has come up a few times that ami, the company that owned the national enquirer and david pecker had what is called a non-prosecution agreement with the justice department, where they effectively admitted that they they committed campaign

finance violations by paying, for example, karen mcdougal, $150,000 to suppress her story. and there's a little bit of a semantic game. well you weren't exactly charged, but you did admitted. so the district attorney, assuming the defense attorneys, were trying to establish that pecker was doing this only because they argue that he was under business pressure. there were business transactions that had to go through and that he had to get the fbi investigation out of the way before he could do that they were trying to sow seeds of doubt in the minds of the jurors about why ami and david pecker would have said something was a campaign finance violations but when they had a chance to go back and i'm prosecutor there's revisited that and had him confirm that. yes. you did admit that this was a campaign finance violations and oh, by the way, you even consulted lawyers who you didn't give the full story too. about whether this was a campaign finance violations because you knew something may not be in the up and up. >> they asked him even if at one point he fronted $150,000 for arnold schwarzenegger trying to compare that seen a celebrity where do you trying

to catch and kill the story through the national enquirer to former president donald trump and the heat of the 2016 campaign. zooming out paula. the next witness will be okay. >> so this is a big reporting project because right now, we don't know and that drives us crazy as reporters, this courthouse is crawling with the reporters and cameras. and so far we haven't we haven't seen a glimpse of anyone. we don't know. they're not sharing who the next witnesses. but if you're looking at the timeline and the way the prosecutors are presenting their case. there are some possibilities. one, you could call karen mcdougal if you wanted to it seems unlikely for a lot of reasons that they will even need to do that. she's doesn't really she's not relevant to the heart of the charges which are about money paid to stormy daniels. you could also call kellyanne conway. she was of course, ahead of the trump campaign at that time and the reason hur testimony would be significant is to talk about the access hollywood tape when it came out very close to the election, the impact it had on the campaign, the pressure they were under a particularly when it came to stories about trump's sex life. the incentive to me let me suppress

those. that would be relevant to setting up the stormy daniels payments. so she's a possible witness. they could call next whole picks, also a possibility, again, intimately involved with the case campaign and involved in conversations with michael cohen and david pecker about these hush money payments. so we haven't gotten to the real heart of the case yet, but as they walk through and set it up these are two possibilities. they could also call someone that none of us have ever heard of to talk about paperwork because at the end of the day, we've got sex, so we've got politics, but really boris, this is paperwork case notable that the prosecution hasn't shared their plans for witnesses with the defense, in part because they're afraid that the former president is going to start posting on social media about them. >> we're still waiting for a decision on it. the gag order is still a lot more to discuss. paula. thanks for bringing that down for us. we'll send it back to morris. we're going to have a busy afternoon. there's no doubt about that. at the same time, some brand new cnn polling and it's showing us how americans view the ongoing hush money trial and various other legal cases involving the

former president donald trump so you now have political director david chaldean is joining us right now. he's over at the magic wall. david, what voters think of the treatment of trump in his hush money trial, and how do they see his behavior? >> yeah well, if we are getting a little insight into how americans are perceiving what's going on in manhattan. first of all, take a look at this. we asked voters in our brand new poll by ssrs, how does trump being treated in the new york hush money trial? about a third, 34% say he's be more leniently than others would be about rafah play the same here, 34% say he's being treated more harshly than others. it doesn't that in american politics right now. this is interesting, only 13% say that he is being treated like any other criminal defendant not many americans believe he is being treated that way. you asked about his behavior you know, this is the subject of the whole issue of the gag order and whether or not donald trump's have been violating it. and obviously, judge merchan is yet to rule on that. 42% of americans and our

poll will say donald trump's behavior during this hush money trial thus far as inappropriate. that's the plurality. 25% say appropriate, 32%, no opinion on that. wolff very interesting numbers indeed are david standby. >> we'll get back to you, but let me ask you one quick question before i let you go. how confident are voters that trump will receive a fair trial? >> yeah so we did ask, are you confident that he'll receive a fair verdict? can he get a fair verdict in this 7% very confident, 36%, somewhat competent, but clearly you see that the majority, 33%, not too confident, 23% not confident at all 56%, if you fed that up, the majority do not have confidence in whether or not he will get a fair trial. and by the way, this hush-money trial, 28% of americans say, if indeed these charges are true, it's disqualify them from the presidency. 28% say cast doubts, but not disqualifying,

but 45% wolf. and this is now something we've seen on the rise, say, even if these charges are true, it's not relevant to his fitness for office very interesting numbers indeed. >> what else jumps out to you from these new poll numbers that we're getting well, i would just say, here, we ask if indeed trump is convicted of a crime of any crime, not just in this hush-money trial would you still support him? >> so we ask this of trump supporters, 76%, three quarters of trump supporters in this poll, there sticking with them, even if he's a convicted criminal 2010 of trump's supporters in this poll, say, if he's convicted, both, they might reconsider, but i want to show you the difference. in these trump supporters, those that might reconsider versus those that are with them no matter what, those that are with them, no matter what that's the trump base as you know, it to be those that might reconsider that 24%. they're younger. >> half of them are people of color two thirds of them say

joe biden legitimately won the 2020 election. they're moderates their independence. these are the softer trump's supporters. these are exactly kinds of voters joe biden's looking to strengthen his support with as part of his coalition. and they're the ones that say if he convicted, they might reconsider their support very interesting number of significant numbers, indeed, david xiaolei, thank you very, very much. just ahead will have much more of our show coverage of the historic hush money trial of donald trump. that's coming up. stay with us the sinking of the titanic, how would really happen, especially to our premier sunday at nine on cnn, somebody would ask her something and she would just walk right past. >> he didn't know they were talking to her. >> i just could not hear i was hesitant to get the hearing aids because of my short hair, but nobody even sees them are

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we're following the latest in the criminal hush money trial former president donald trump and in the next hour testimony is set to resume from former tabloid executive david pecker. >> that's coming up at roughly 2:15 p.m. so you want to stay tuned for that. but right now, we want to go to cnn kara scannell, who was in court for this morning's cross-examinati on, and then the reader, rep. examination. qarrah, take us through what you saw so trump's attorneys started their re-cross or their cross-examination today, continuing the theme that they had yesterday, trying to say that a lot of what david pecker and the national enquirer was doing think was the seat put at standard operating procedure? >> we went through a number of the news articles that the enquirer had published of trump's political opponents, ben carson, marco rubio pecker agreed that they would have run these stories, even if he didn't have that deal with the former president that was struck in august 2015 at trump tower to kachin hill. any negative stories, as well as to publish negative stories about his political opponents. he

also tried to catch david pecker in some inconsistencies in here his testimony, david pecker has been cooperating with prosecutors, the federal prosecutors and the district attorney's office for several years now. and so they were focusing on remember, the testimony about a january 2017 meeting at trump tower that david pecker walked into all donald trump was finishing up a meeting with some of with the f then cia director james comey and others and during this meeting is when david pecker testified that there was that he had a conversation so what donald trump donald trump thanked him for taking care of the doorman's story in the karen mcdougal story so donald trump's attorneys pressed him on notes from previous interview had given with investigators. and in that interview notes he said, according to the fbi's nodes, that david pecker told them that donald trump did not express any gratitude david pecker dug in on that today saying that the fbi knows were wrong and that his testimony

over the past few days is that correct accurate testimony? so a lot of back and forth over different inconsistencies in certain agreements and trying to get david pecker office feet and we did see during the testimony of cross-examine the nation, david pecker, some of his answers we're very quiet. one answer was so quiet, it was barely audible in the courtroom when the prosecutors began their redirected him to try to address some of the issues that the cross-examination raise. david pecker began to grow more confident again, he was again turning to look toward the jury as he was answering those questions and problems scooters focus on the redirect. was that david pecker would not have done some of these things, but for the deal, he would not have entered into the agreement to pay 150 $1,000 to karen mcdougal without the understanding that donald trump would have reimbursed him for it, he would not have ever allowed any buddy on behalf of the candidate to get involved with amending some of these catch and kill deals. so who's trying to reset the table with david pecker there? that is

expected to continue after the lunch break. prosecutor said they have but about less than a half an hour, more questions. trump's attorneys said he will have a few more on cross-examination, and then we'll move on to the next witness in this case, which they've not publicly said who that is yet. for us kara scannell live outside the courthouse. >> thank you so much. we want to go back to wolf blitzer in the nation's capital wolf. >> all right, boris, thank you. i want to turn to my panel hello. elie honig. let me start with you. explain what the prosecution aims to do in this redirect so the goal of redirect is to try to minimize or undo any damage done in the cross-examination and just to give like a little visual representation, each of these has to get narrower and narrower. >> your direct exam is here, your cross-examine has to be within and usually narrower then the direct exam, then you're redirect has to be narrower then within the cross exam and so on down the line. i think the main points that prosecutors are trying to reinforce here as we head into redirect, our first of all, this was an intentional organized operation. it was ami

national enquirer, david pecker, working hand-in-hand with michael cohen and donald trump. and the campaign in order to buy these stories, in order to protect donald trump's campaign prospects. that's the bottom line that they're trying to get back at. >> interesting elly, elliot williams is with us as well before this redirect elliott, what did you make of the defenses cross-examination? >> i think the defense did what they had to do. the point and of cross is the score is a score as many points as possible against the witness. and the main things here in the absence of a major bombshell that they could extract are number one attack the witnesses credibility. do you remember these things that you said you did and they pointed to a few instances where a statement he'd made didn't quite match a document and they made those again, the case won't rise and fall on them, but they can dirty up the witness a little bit. also, a big thing they focused on were these catch and kill, or at least dirt at least articles, schemes that involve individuals other than politicians making the case that well, not just donald

trump, but arnold schwarzenegger or mark wahlberg also were parties two arrangements if ami, in which we engage in the same conduct you are accusing us of having committed a crime and doing so muddy the waters as to whether these payments were made to a campaign. they're made for all sorts of purposes and that's what they're saying of course, was having a run for governor of california. >> so did not call him a politician at that moment. i think it very much was in the ether that agreement as part of a potential candidates, it's not as good that's not as good. an example for them as marquee mark wiles is that the that what trump's attorneys they're saying is that this was standard operating procedure. >> this is this is what you did at the enquirer. and what steinglass is saying is yes, the question, do you normally pay people $150,000 and they paid karen mcdougal and the answer was no, we don't normally do that, so it wasn't

standard operating procedure and i think they were they were trying to make that point that this was different. this was hatched differently. this was intended to help a presidential campaign and it cost money, bigger money than they were used to paying people trump's attorneys have made a point of trying to argue to the jury, this is all just a big sleazy business. and why does this become criminal? and the fact that it was done other times and consistently through many years is helpful on the margins, but helpful to donald trump's team. because then let's imagine the counterfactual. what if they never did this for anybody until donald trump came along and then they said, okay, we're going to do this thing. we're going to pay people for their stories. we're going to put out harmful sores that would be a lot more sinister and a lot easier for the jury to understand why does this cross the line? but glory, you're exactly right. that's, that's the line that prosecutors are trying to define. >> different level a different level, but we also know that some of the final questions but that just got asked a few moments ago. where do you

remember an instance in which number one, someone was paid $150,000 for this type of skimming. he said, no after meeting with donald trump, did you have more of an interest in helping the campaign? yes. and that's sort of where the prosecution sort of ended, but through land ms brown david chelly, and a bunch of reporters who were in the courtroom are suggesting today that trump's energy seems to have been a lot lower today than it's been sitting back with his eyes closed for a lot of the testimony that was going on what does that how do you read that i mean, i think it's gotta be pretty grueling to be confined to your chair. sitting there day in and day out, in quartered. it's not a stimulating environment for him, so i can understand why he may be tiring of this process that may explain some of his lower energy. i think we have to be careful about reading too much into this kind of

description because yesterday i thought was a perfect example. we saw him in the morning. he was very energetic in his comments and taking on joe biden after the long day of court, he was a little lower-energy as i think many people would be at the end of a long day, i don't know that there's something we can take away from that wolff and say, oh, this is clearly killing them in some way. no, but do i think sitting in that courtroom and again, so differently for donald trump than everything else in his life. this is a man who is dictates his own schedule, is ensconced in this special place of security in a bubble and billionaires and millionaires, this is not somebody who is inclined to have to just be told to sit still in a courtroom with all regular folk nonstop other people realize how boring court is the air is stale. it's a room in which you can't get up and walk around. very calm. it's what the temperature may not be regulated in a way that's comfortable for everybody, but it's not. in

particular this sort of bombing in fire of the vanities 1980s courtroom is not does not come with the trappings of a modern environment. it can be very hard to sit in that environment, particularly if you're not the person who's arguing her speaking? no control over it he can't he can't control the thermostat, even he can't control what the judge is going to do he can't control what's going on on the witness stand he can talk to his lawyers so you can pass some notes. >> he can't even look at his phone, which i think is very difficult for him. so he's used to being as david was saying, is used to being in control of everything thing and every moment of his day. >> and he is not in control in that courtroom. >> it seems somebody has had a heart to heart with donald trump, but that he is an court conduct because his out-of-court conduct has been abominable he has i believe violated the gag order many times over i think will potentially see such a ruling from the judge sue, but all of his conduct incur is exactly what virtually every criminal defendant does. >> sometimes you whisper to your attorney, you pass notes,

you look at some witnesses. sometimes there's eye contact, some there's not if i was his lawyer, i would have tried to stress to him this is all about self-preservation. that jury is looking at you. if you offend that jury, you are going to harm your chances of surviving this trial. if that jury feels like you're being respectful, you're going to marginally, but you're going to increase your chances of getting a good verdict. it seems we're weekend, so we'll see how long this can all that, but it seems that message has gotten through with respect to his in-court in front of the jury behavior important caveat that we're we get because that's how belching from what i saw i've reminded of all the times of teleprompter trump versus non teleprompter trump. and can he really change? proves time and again that he doesn't really change. but i take your point. i mean, he is clearly heating some advice about how not to put his foot in his mouth in front of the jury when do you get to look at donald trump for hours on end? you never do. >> i mean, the reporters in that in that courtroom are not

used to this either because you look at you look at donald trump in soundbites or in an interview or whatever, but you know, look at him four hours and that's what's going on in that courtroom. >> and so the journalists are looking for every twitch and saying, oh, is this, is this meaningful? but, but they're not used to seeing me. they're like nobody really standby. >> we're gonna have a lot to report out in the next few hours indeed, much more of our special coverage coming up stay with us. we'll be right back the stanley cup playoffs presented by geico tnt it out electric cup playoffs presented by gakpo covers continues to mega six, 30 tnt and tbs with car gurus, you can buy or sell your car in person or online. >> if only you could do things your way all the time gee.

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you or a loved one who has been diagnosed with mesothelioma, call us now welcome back to cnn's special coverage of former president trump's criminal hush money trial. >> courts but is now in recess for a little bit longer tabloid executive david pecker will be back out of the stand in minutes, but before the break, they took a lunch break a little while ago prosecutors were trying to re-establish david pecker is credibility after the defense exposed some small inconsistencies in pecker statements, i want to bring in jury consultant, the president the decision analysis. richard gabriel. richard, thanks so much for joining us. there was a moment today. where trump attorney emile bove drill down on david pecker is 2018 interview with the fbi and some inconsistencies between notes from that interview and pecker's current testimony emerged, how do inconsistencies like that way in a jury as they look at a case well, i think

it's more about how the jury already has viewed the witness, where they feel that he's been authentic and sincere and straightforward with them. >> if they feel that he's been kind of a little bit shady and some of his answers, even on the direct testimony, they don't particularly like him, then they can see those inconsistencies as really key to credibility problems. but a lot of times we do focus on minor points and whether that really does it and sometimes it's a forest for the trees type of issue. jury is really looking at, well, what is this really say? is this really a bad conduct? tier? what is really say about the witness, these small inconsistencies tend to not have that gradient impact unless there's a big blow to the witnesses credibility. so i'm not sure it's going to have a tremendous effect at this point. >> yeah, interesting. many of the key points that offense is trying to make are very, very nuanced. shall we say? >> does that offense run the risk of making an argument too complicated for a jury there is

that definition the problem here is that it's trying to establish what is thinning. the credibility is one thing, but i think one of the things they are trying to establish here is just again, trying to normalize the behavior so as opposed to saying he's not necessarily credible, they're saying, look, this is something and it's one of the primary arguments that the trump team i think is making in the case which is this is just politics. this is not necessarily a criminal conduct, and i think he's hoping to reach some of the jurors on here. this is why jury selection can be so important. you've got two lawyers to engineers, people in wealth management, and whether they're going to interpret this testimony to really say, okay, is this actually illegal versus just politics as usual trump's attorney at one point, i thought this was interesting also apologize to david pecker over confusion in the questioning of whether hope hicks, former trump by aid, had come up in an interview with

the fbi from your experience, does a defense attorney apologizing to a witness have any sway on jurors? >> typically, no. i mean, it depends how how big it is. i mean, you know, it really has to do with how hard they're going it doesn't sound like they're going after him very hard on this. and so it's it's sort of this convivial type of thing. there's always this sort of delicate balance because the attorney can lose credibility also, if they go too hard after the witness because then it highlights their testimony to a certain extent. i think they want to make a few points and then get this witness off the stand hoping to make stronger points on credibility with michael cohen and some of the other witnesses does the mood change? richard in a courtroom when the defense gets the cross-examine, a prosecutor's witness well yes. i mean what the defense is, always hopes is that they

can take over the case at that point, because obviously the prosecutors control the evidence in the flow of the facts at that point. and so it is an opportunity for the defense attorneys to sort of try to take back control, try to reestablish some other themes, tried to impugn the credibility of the witness, tried to score a few points, but ultimately, it's they have to make a judgment call in terms of how strongly do you then want to highlight the witness's testimony? because the more time and energy you put into cross-examining that witness also so it can tend to highlight some of those things or the witness can do very well. and so it's a judgment call for a lot of attorneys. do i stand or do i get out and cut my losses? >> are team in the courtroom, richard, they've been paying very close attention to the jurors, the 12 jurors, who they say have been following with their eyes the back-and-forth between the trump attorney and pecker, for example, what does that say to you about how

intently the jury is paying attention to this case well we obviously they know it's a pretty important case. >> so they're very tuned in and this is the first witness on the stand so jurors attention is at its highest. and the first witness opening statements are critical because they sort of established the story that both sides are trying to tell. the, first witness sort of it's kind of okay. how does the evidence going to support either the prosecution's case or the defense's case. so they're tracking it very closely. you've got very smart people on this jury who clearly want to pay attention. so i think obviously they're very keen on trying to figure out what is this witness mean? if this goes on for weeks and weeks and weeks, you may see some of their attention wayne and also, i think both sides have to be careful because sometimes redundancy can tire a jury out and they can kind of go like kinda got the point here and they want to move on, even

though the attorneys want to score that one little extra point, and they're paying really, really close attention right now as they clearly should. richard gabriel. thanks so much for your expertise and just ahead will have much more of our special coverage of this historic hush-money trial of donald trump a week unlike we've ever seen before, a court resumes in about 40 minutes much more of our special coverage right after this when the jinx came out, i thought, oh, my god when bob has a friend, he expects blind loyalty surprises of supply hi skin craving. next level hydration new neutrogena, hydro boost, water cream of vital boost of nine times more hydration could boost your skin's barrier for quenched dewy skin. that's full of life neutrogena hydro boost if you're moderate to severe

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that's 18088, 851177, called i'm elizabeth wagmeister in los angeles in this welcome back to cnn special life coverage of donald trump's historic first criminal trial. >> any moment now, former tabloid executive, david pecker

is set to return to the witness stand to continue his fourth day hey, of testimony earlier today, he underwent cross-examination by trump's defense team before facing redirect questioning by prosecutors pecker has been on the stand for just under ten hours over the course of these four days, we're joined now by john di and he's a cnn contributor, former white house counsel in the nixon administration. he also co-wrote the book, authoritarian nightmare trump and his followers, john, thank you so much for sharing part of your afternoon with us so david pecker, nearly ten hours on the stand. what moments most stand out to you from his testimony well, i think he's a good witness from what i've read and i've read the transcript of the first couple of days. >> he's an excellent witness when he doesn't know something, he admits it when something unpleasant probably rather not address. he openly addresses and so he's a he's going to be a very credible witness. and i think the

redirect today cleaned up any any doubts in the jury's mind? >> much of the testimony so far is effectively setting the table for the prosecution's argument, right? we haven't heard much about stormy daniels and the arrangement that other former president had with her through michael cohen. how do you think this early stage of tests? stem one will play into the bigger picture it, it really does as you said, set the table it what it does in legal terms it establishes the conspiracy and shows who the players were and how they operated within a conspiracy and the stormy daniels is just an ongoing part of this conspiracy that the prosecutors are now laying out and that has a lot of implications for evidence and for the way they proceed and i think the jury will get it as the pieces get

filled in. >> now from this broad outline that pecker has given through the prosecutors one of the big questions of course, is who who is set to testify after the testimony of david pecker wraps up the former president said yesterday that he would testify if it's necessary. jerry, do you think is defense attorneys are probably tun to talk him out of that i suspect they are. >> he is not a good witness. he's the few times he's been on the stand and in depositions at some length, we can see is not a good witness so this is a little bravado for his base because there are obviously political implications of the great dimension for him in this trial and the others we also haven't gotten a decision from judge merchan on whether trump violated the gag order. the prosecution wants and held in

contempt of court for more than a dozen instances. and today say that he violated a gag order that would have prevented him from speaking out about which isn't the case about even staff in the courtroom. what do you make of the delay in a decision here? does that create ambiguity or is it? in an indication that the judge wants to focus on the facts of the case and not necessarily the distractions that the defendant potentially is causing on social media well, of course, the prosecutors have filed additional violations of the gag order and they i think they're trying to hope that the judge will be able to take this under deliberation. >> i think what the judge is trying to do is not distract from the progress of the trial with the gag order issue he probably is measuring that the fact that the jury, if they're following their instructions, or not becoming aware of trump's out-of-court statements and attacks on

witnesses and the jury itself. but rather, they want judges want to move their cases along because juries do get tired and so that's i think his main focus. i frankly thank he's going to have to say something very soon because he's giving trump too much leash to just continue to violate without any sanction john dean, appreciate your perspective. thank you so much for being with us thanks. >> bars of course, stay with cnn because are special live coverage is set to continue right after this court expected to resume at 2:15, they would live from the nation's capital one of the most unforgettable nights in dc. this rotor will read back here again, president biden, and comedian collin joseph headline the white house correspondents dinner, live

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started today. accustoming.com how would really happen sunday at nine on cnn closed captioning is brought to you by sokoloff law mesothelial ma victims call now $30 billion in trust money has been set aside. you may be entitled to a portion of that money all when 8085920400. that's when 8085920400 national media headlines about you as january sakes insurrectionist. now he's running for congress. what do you want people to know about you beyond that big headline, a lot of my family very much alumni community, i love my country and i think it's despicable that the media and particularly cnn, has helped paint this false narrative of insurrection that's from the documentary. >> i miss in phonation with cnn corresponded donie o'sullivan, just about six months away from the presidential election right now the battle for facts is

playing in social media feeds, churches, and even in the homes of so many americans don't. it looks at how conspiracy theories and online misinformation are tearing some americans apart and effecting potentially the upcoming presidential campaign. let's discuss with donie o'sullivan these joining us right now. donie, i know you spent a lot of time with the trump faithful. what did you learn hey, will fia at that clip, we just play there for you is derek evans. >> he is a he was convicted and serve three months in prison for his role in january 6, and he is now a primary republican primary candidates in west virginia for the us house. we actually spoke to him on the three-year anniversary of january 6, back back just a few months ago. and it was at a church in florida where he was speaking with the likes of marjorie taylor green. and this is what we're seeing across the country is the use of christianity specifically, what

is now known as christian nationalism and. this melding of conspiracy theories. i kind of warped sense of what it means to be an american and just seeing, seeing this all play out. so really what we're trying to show in missing the phonation documentary that's airing on sunday really is just all the forces, the ideas that maybe we once thought were fringe. they are false. but they're no longer fringe. i mean, i think about a third of americans, third of all americans. don't believe that joe biden was legitimately elected president in 2020. and something like a quarter of americans believed that falsely that the fbi i staged or had a hand in the january 6 attack. so really what we're trying to show here is that this stuff that is happening on the dark corners of the the international and podcasts and everywhere else. it really is affecting the american political mainstream the only

are conspiracy theories growing about former president trump's court cases now look, i think that just plays it all a lot of the folks that we're speaking to are very much the trump base, right? >> they're not going to deviate from that. of course, we have polling that shows that some republicans might change their mind, none voting for trump if he is convicted. but for the folks we meet, events like this, these sort of christian nationalist events. i mean, it's bizarre. will friday, we were at a church down in florida where there was conspiracy popular conspiracy theorists, people who stream online all day spouting conspiracy theories and they're up at the top of a church where normally one would be praying and they're talking about conspiracy theories he's about 9:11 and everything else so when it comes to the trump trials, this really just for the people who believe this stuff, believed that trump is being being unfairly pursued.

>> donie o'sullivan, thanks so much for all your excellent reporting. appreciate it very much to our viewers. be sure to tune in to an all new episode of the whole story. with anderson cooper, one whole hour, one whole story. it air sunday, 8:00 p.m. eastern am pacific only here on cnn and minutes from now, the former tabloid executive, david pecker, will be back on the witness stand. prosecutors are set to resume redirect. we're going to bring you all the latest developments from inside the courtroom right after this riyad saves new album is breaking records gets to say what country is calm? the country fiance, uh, nashville's renaissance streaming exclusively on macs back their tech allergy relief works fast and lasts a full 24 hours. >> so dave can be deliverer dance okay. dave, let's be more

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line for a cleaner, healthier mouth this three field, the world pain-related colleagues. who do you take it for and for fast topical pain relief, child leave x cnn saturday morning starting tomorrow at eight on cnn welcome back to our special live coverage of the first ever criminal trial of a former president. >> i've or sanchez outside the manhattan courthouse where donald trump is on trial and will flexor is with us from washington, dc in just minutes long time. trump friend and former tabloid executive david pecker will be back on the witness stand to wrap up for contentious days of testimony. the prosecution's redirect has

tried to illustrate that pecker entered into this unorthodox catch and kill deal with trump with the express goal of influencing the 2016 election. and trump's favor, wolf on the other side, during today's cross-examination, trump's attorney tried to trip up. mr. pecker by highlighting inconsistencies in his answers. let's go to cnn's kara scannell. she was in the courtroom for everything today. kara, who so what did you see today? >> well, if that's right and part of the theme of the cross-examination was trying to find some inconsistencies and david pecker's testimony, one of the areas they focused on was his meeting in january of 2017 at trump tower. and during that meeting, david pecker head testified that donald trump had thanked him for taking care of the doorman's story and karen mcdougal's allegations of an affair of david pecker has testified that the american media had his company had bought those rights to those stories stopping them from becoming public. now on cross-examination, trump's

attorney was pressing pecker and saying, well, that was a mistake, wasn't in pecker's voice grew faint. he said, no, it wasn't then trump's it's attorney confronted him with notes that were taken at an fbi interview that pecker had given. >> and during that interview, the note said that trump had not expressed any gratitude. will david pecker said those notes were wrong and that his testimony today was correct. now, trump's lawyers also tried to use the moment to discredit michael cohen asking david pecker if he thought that michael cohen when was prone to exaggeration and david pecker testified that yes, he did believe so. they tried to follow up with another question. there was an objection by the prosecution and the judge sustained it. so they moved on then on redirect. the prosecution was trying to address some of these areas and some of the themes of the cross-examination, which was also that david pecker is company would have done this anyway because it was standard operating procedure for a tabloid to buy stories and to kill some stories to write negative stories about politicals politicians, opponents. but then one of the final questions that he asked

before the break, he asked david pecker if on that karen mcdougal story, he said to him, if you would have published that, that would have been national enquirer gold because it would have sold through the roof and david pecker testified, yes, it would. underlying the prosecution's theme that the reason why he was buying some of these deals and to bury them was to benefit donald trump and not his company that david pecker will be back on the stand prosecutor said he has about a half if an hour more of redirect he has for him, there will be a little bit of re-cross and then we'll get into the next witness. the second witness in this historic case. >> well, i'm doing okay. cara, who this second witness who will testify after pecker? >> the prosecution has not stated publicly who that witness will be. we did learn that they informed trump's attorney just before the break, there had been some tension between the two over getting a heads up about who the next witness would be because of concerns that donald trump might make social media posts about that witness this all of course object to that gag

order. that is being challenged. and prosecutors say that trump has violated now at least 14 times, we'll we'll find out fairly soon. kara scannell. thank you very, very much. boris, back to you let's expand the conversation now with cnn chief legal affairs correspondent paula reid and former manhattan district attorney prosecutor, karen friedman, agnifilo. >> thank you both for being with us. we should note karen councils for a firm that represents michael cohen. she has no contact with cohen, does not work on his case, and there are no restrictions about what she can say about the case as well. now that that is out of the way, polo, right before we took a break for lunch of the prosecutors were trying to time michael cohen to the trump campaign, help us understand why one point pecker testified that he didn't associate michael cohen with the trump campaign. now, that's a statement that it's sort of strains credulity because at the time, trump was running for the white house, cohen was his really consider clery, his

personal attorney. you'd gone scream at you if you were doing a story, they didn't like me. are there. they were they were completely in lockstep& the idea that you can separate yourself from someone who's running from the white house. again, it's hard to believe, but the reason that was significant it's because remember the core of this case is an allegation that this hush money payment to stormy daniels was covered up because it was done to help trump win the white house. and that's part of the prosecution's case. so that's why prosecutors went back at this question and they're like, hey, you testified when defense attorneys asked you questions and you didn't really associate cohen as being part of the campus? payne that's why they're focused on that because they just want to they want a button that up, that like of course, anything he was doing to help trump was part of an effort to win the white house. >> so karen, during the cross-examination of pecker, the defense was seemingly trying to do two things. they were trying to poke holes in his story or make the jury question his credibility or at least his memory at one point. and also they were trying to sort of normalize the process of these catch and kill stories, right? how well did

they succeed? >> and i didn't think the redirect is going so far as the prosecution tries to fix that. well cross-examination can do one of two things. either you're going to go in and destroy the person. if you have the goods great, if you have a way to really destroy them in and destroy their credibility, that's what you do. because you want to get some reasonable doubt in there. well, either they don't have that on david pecker or are they made some kind of calculus not to do that because maybe he has something on donald trump, who knows what they decided to do instead was really embraced him and use him to advance their theory, their theory is very much that this was normal. this was not campaign related. this is your business model. this is what you did all the time and that's a really effective technique because they're not attacking the prosecution's witnesses. they're using them to advance their story so they don't don't have to necessarily call their own witnesses, right? they're putting on a defense through the prosecution. and so i thought they did an effective job at that at really starting

to give make four put forward their defense. now, josh steinglass is going to do and has been doing on redirect and continue to do is remind people know this was different yeah, you did catch and kill, but you never paid $150,000 before, like you did karen mcdougal, that was unusual you consulted an election lawyer because you what you were doing was dicey, unusual and you are concerned that that was in >> at this stage, and then you'll see another re-cross so many details getting into the weeds of these financial dealings of david, an ami, a national enquirer you're getting some guidance on the timing of this. it sounds like we're going to see some

redirect wrap up relatively quickly when we to get back. >> yeah, they sent it over cord. this is a have a mu less than half an hour to do redirect. and then you're going to get some re-cross a little bit of that. so that translate to saying maybe about 45 minutes to an hour, more of a david packer and then that next mystery witness and i will say this entire court house is crawling with reporters were on the phone phone, were asking me the fact that we haven't spotted anyone who's not all of the witnesses here are household names but many of them are. i mean, it's just keeps us guessing who who is it going to be? how are you going to use this a little bit of time on a friday afternoon and to that question quickly, karen, if it is a friday afternoon, the jurors were looking at the clock, the judge might be looking at the clock as well, thinking of a weekend is almost here they're they're off on monday, right? who could the prosecution called next that you think would be effective in that context so with the prosecution's analyzing and saying, okay, i don't want to put someone really significant on for an hour on a friday afternoon when there's no court for three days because first of

all, at a minimum, the jury is going to forget anything they said, right. >> so you'd have to start over for again after three days of being away from this stuff. and also you don't want to give the defense three days to get a preview of how there'll be and i'll get to prepare and comb through all the discovery and find every little thing. so you're going to try to if they can, if there is some throwaway witness that they can just put on the stand that doesn't matter one way or another while they all take the long weekend to prepare their more difficult witnesses. that's what they're going to be doing. and we'll see how they approach it. >> karen, paula, thank you both so much. appreciate it. >> wolf will send it back to you whereas excellent discussion. >> thank you. were following more breaking news right now in a brand new interview with howard stern, president biden was asked whether he planned to debate his predecessor of the former president, donald trump. listen to this his response, this is by i don't know if you're going to debate your opponent. >> i am somewhere i don't know where i'm happy let's bring in our white house correspondent,

mj lee. she's joining us right now and alayna treene is joining us with more on this as well. mj, what more are you hearing from the biden administration and from the biden campaign for that matter on these comments from the president that he's ready to debate trump? >> well, wolf, up until now, president biden had never given a definitive answer to the question of whether he would be willing to debate donald trump. and in this lengthy interview with howard stern earlier today, he said he doesn't know when this will happen or where it will happen. but he said, quote, i'm happy to debate him as we just heard this comes, i should note on the heels of a dozen or so news organizations, including cnn, earlier this month, writing an open letter urging both donald trump and president biden to participate in televised debates before november's election day. trump, of course, for his part, who skipped the republic welcome, primary debates has said recently that he is willing to debate president biden anytime and anywhere. and i think it's just worth

pointing out, given the focus of some of our coverage today. >> in recent days, were out of moment where president biden's white house and the campaign are trying to have to figure out route and confronting the reality of finding ways to really break through as there has been a lot of overwhelming focus on the trump trials, advisers, i've spoken to say that he is continuing to govern. >> he is continuing to campaign and that that is going to continue, but it is interesting that he decided to have this lengthy sit down with howard stern, who obviously has a very big audience. >> yeah, it was very interesting indeed i want to go to alayna right now. you've been covering the trump campaign for us, alaimo. what's the reaction at least so far from this news that president biden has announced his happy to go ahead and have a debate with trump before the election. >> well, shortly after the interview, walf, one of donald trump's top advisers, chris lacivita, said, let's set it up

and then moments ago, we heard from the former president directly. currently they're on a lunch break in his trial and he posted to truth social. i'm going to read you part of that post. he said, quote, crooked joe biden, just denounce that he's willing to debate. everyone knows he doesn't really mean it. but in case he does, i say in all caps anywhere anytime any place the post went on to say that he suggested monday evening, tuesday evening, or wednesday evening at my rally in michigan. and then later in the post, he said, in fact, let's do the debate at the courthouse house tonight on national television. all wait around. so well, if, as you can see, this has become a bit of a stick for donald trump and his team were told actually by some of the pool reporters at the courthouse in manhattan that another one of donald trump's top advisers, jason miller, had actually handed out printed copies of this truth social while they're on this lunch break. so clearly they're trying to get attention for this and part of that stick as well. wolff has been many of donald trump's most recent rallies. he's put up a podium

onstage, which is supposed to symbolize an empty spot for biden where they've really been criticizing joe biden for not willing to come out saas far and say, let's do this less. let's debate now i also want to remind you that earlier this month, we did see a memo from two of donald trump's campaign manager, susie wiles and chris lacivita. >> they had called on the presidential commission on debates to host more and earlier debate. >> so this is really something that they have been pushing for. they think from my conversations with them that having donald trump and joe biden on stage side-by-side would be a good contrast for their campaign was very interesting and de then we're just told that trump is now back in the courtroom getting ready for the next round. i just we've seen walking back in this video for moments ago. alayna treene and mj lee guys, thank you very, very much. and to our viewers, don't go anywhere. court is about to resume are special live coverage will continue right after this the sinking of the

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out there. all new reps from subway hi, i'm roger on capitol hill in this is cnn you're watching cnn special live coverage of donald trump's first criminal trial were told the jury has now re-entered the courtroom. the former president, this team are also backing in court after a lunch break, and we may soon learn who will be the second witness called in his truly historic trial. prosecutors will finish. first of all questioning. david pecker, the former publisher of the

national enquirer, who testified that it killed off stories to help presidential candidate donald trump i want to bring back my panel right now. i'm laura coates is joining us right now. laura what's your main takeaways so far of what we've seen, the testimony so far today. >> well, what's important, you're talking about a witness like this. >> it's your lead off witness kind of like your lead off hit or you want to make sure that you're going to maintain their credibility throughout. and this is all the course of several days now since monday, we've been hearing from david pecker get a couple of days off. but if you're the prosecution, you want to make sure the credibility is intact, that they are a part of a jigsaw puzzle that this witness can't get you. everything, but certain parts of it. the catch and kill scheme and not try to have the cross-examination undermine any of that. so far they've tried to lance and pungent with inke, isn't statements and pointing out documents and the prosecution agreement meant to not prosecute them in that context, but they haven't landed fully a blow that is undermined fatally as credibility. and remember, you can't go by and judge, david pecker, based on the type of articles they publish and the inquire, the

enquirer is not on the stand, it's not on trial. what matters to this jury is they believe the statements about the conversation that he had with the person who is the defendant, donald trump. and so far, we're seeing a lot of this continuing to play out. >> it's interesting just now, the what are the prosecutor? joshua steinglass said to pecker i'm gonna try not to keep you here too much longer and it's not a joke that he should not at this point. and just to underscore what cross-examination is versus redirect versus what comes after cross-examination is where the opposing party picks apart and leads the witness. and then on redirect, you clean up whatever bad dirt got dredged up on cross-examination . but as elie had said, maybe in the last it's our you want to narrow down over the course of these three things. and by the time of the redirect, the attorney who's doing it should really only ask a few questions what the prosecution probably needs to do here is just end on one clear understandable point

that you can send david pecker home with and have the jury thinking this was the point of david pecker's testimony. you've got to end on a question did you see donald trump direct x or y or z? yes. period, full stop and then get out of there. >> well, the whole point is that donald trump get special treatment, that it wasn't standard operating procedure that you don't normally pay someone like karen mcdougal, $150,000. and i think they've been driving that that point home, that this was a conspiracy that was hatched with donald trump, michael cohen, and david pecker.& that this was out of the ordinary, even though yeah, they did stuff on to protect our own shorts, niagara and whatever they never went to these lengths to protect someone as they did with donald trump. >> and it's easy to overdo it here in sort of gild the lily with the questioning at a certain point, it's time to pack up and go home. the jury just got back from lunch. they're likely going to be start getting tired. it's friday. there is mindful of the

clock. has anyone else and it's just worth it to wrap up cut your losses and the wall street journal article though published on november 4, 2016, and this is around the time when they're exposing. i think the conversation between trump and pecker where he's irritated that something has gotten out. he's accusing pecker at one point of having someone on his team leak the information, he ends the call by not saying goodbye. which was unusual for trump to do. he says probably the beginning of the end, but again, this is all going back to the timing of it and why it was important not to have this come out yet. >> i'm wondering who do you think led the next witness will be the second witness in this historic trial. so do they wrap up with peck? so i have no idea but more relevantly, donald trump's team has no idea and that is really unusual because ordinarily, the last thing that happens in a trial de is the judge says to the prosecution, prosecution, who are you calling tomorrow? who we going to have on the stand tomorrow? often it's more advanced than that if to say who's coming in next week, but donald trump has himself to blame for his attorneys lack of visibility

here because when his attorneys asked for that notice, the judge said not right now, not the way you've been tweeting about witnesses, not the way you've been violating the gag order now, if i'm if i'm donald trump's attorneys, you need that. you need to know who's coming you need to know who you're prepping for. i mean, they have a witness list that's dozens of witnesses long. how do you know who to press f4 and so i think what i would do is wait for the judge to give his gag order ruling, which is going to be bad for donald trump. i would say lesson learned. we now have clarity and a really judge need to know. i mean, defense lawyers always need to know that. >> and i would ask not just the who it is in terms of strategy, what lost on people as the name and the prep also talks about the order. >> the order in which you present these witnesses demonstrators. are you going crow not chronologically here. >> are you want to the jury to believe that here is a pattern of behavior and then up next is karen mcdougal events door me and then you have the full chronology or is it? that you're going to go in a direction? i didn't anticipate that your real theory of the case is about a conspiracy to sink in different way or some other way. they want to know

not just the name, but they want to know what is the strategy here to guard against that and then be able to actively cross over today's content. >> and i would add to both of these excellent points, there's a nuts and bolts logistics matter to it. the court needs to know how much time to set aside and be prepared for trial wise. most judges have other proceedings, maybe even other trials going on or whatever else. but the judge often there'll be an estimate. we will call david xiaolei and to the stand next, i anticipate though, but i anticipate his spellbinding testimony will be three days and the judge might say, well, wrap it up in 2.5 or whatever and it's for the court's own planning. so everybody benefits by knowing who the upcoming witnesses are but as elliott said the trump former present trump's sort of gotten his own way here with his, with his conduct. >> well, if we should note that when we were talking about the november 4, 2016 while street journal story, which is where this started after lunch. that's largely about karen

mcdougal. there's a passing reference to stormy daniels in the story, but that is, that is a story that was published in the aftermath of access hollywood right before the election that was really back here, mcdougal now, the prosecutor is getting back into the notion of stormy daniels, and that is why so much of david pecker's testimony is about mcdougal or the doorman because that's what ami was involved with. i actually the stormy daniels thing, as we know, pecker said he wanted no part of that. is magazine is at walmart and that will look so good or what have you. and then this is on michael cohen and donald trump dissolve. and so they want to i guess the prosecutors now, if you look here, pecker says of daniel, sorry, that he wasn't going to print it or buy it or be associated with they wanted him to reassess sir that this issue, stormy daniels, which is what all the paperwork in this case is about those payments. that squarely in donald trump's lap via michael cohen were standing by to get more information who will be the second witness in this historic trial will see if the judge makes a decision on the gag order, the punishment for trump

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and our california lawmakers for fighting for what matters. fubotv i'm sunlen serfaty in washington and this is cnn welcome back to our special live coverage. former president donald trump's new york hush money trial. former tabloid executive david pecker is still on the stand for the redirect

examination and pecker just reiterated that when it came to the stormy daniel story, he wasn't going to print it or be associated with it. our panel is back with us now and it looks like notes from the interview confirmed that pecker told the fbi that when he visited trump tower in january 2017, donald trump thanked him for handling the doorman and mcdougal stories. and i want to get back to what we heard moments ago and name that has only come up sparingly but that is at the center of this case, not as stormy daniels. why is it important in the redirect for the prosecution to ask david pecker about him staying away from that story? >> yeah. because they spent so much time setting up the two stories that he was willing to pay for and suppress door man who alleged falsely alleged trial that wedlock caramel google whole alleged affair. but then you get similarly a similar story, store and mcdaniel's offering to sell her tail. and he said, i want nothing to do with that. and there were a lot of reasons for that. a big one was that he was not paid back for the $150,000 and he paid karen mcdougal and

this sort of brings us up to the beginning of the falsified in business records story because stormy daniels, her contact, they get passed off to michael cohen, who we now know facilitate this hush money payment that is at the center of this case. so that's why they're just revisiting exactly what his connection was to stormy daniels and the fact that he wanted nothing to do with that particular payment does it surprise you, karen, that about a week into testimony now we haven't heard that much about stormy daniels. this is really one of the only occasions that her name is even come up. >> it doesn't surprise me because really what this case is actually about is this whole election conspiracy to try and influence the election by doing this catch and kill and other all the things pecker has been testifying about, yet donald trump focused on criticizing all his all his criticisms where michael cohen, stormy daniels and that was the more salacious sister, the more salacious facts. and so that's what everyone focused on. but what the trials doing is really

refocusing everyone on what it's actually about, which is not just hush money porn star case. this is about thank to influence an election and committing crimes and doing so and so that's the trial is actually much more or much less salacious, i should say. then we were led to believe it would be before yes, i packer made a great first witness for the prosecution to set the stage as a broader pattern of coordinating and trump's direct involvement here to suppress these negative stories ahead of november 2016? >> so what does trump thanking pecker for handling the mcdougal story and the doorman's story. how does that fit into their effort to link the two? >> so what's going on right now? this is redirect. >> and the fact that josh steinglass, the prosecutor, is focusing on these things like thinking thank you, et cetera is two things. >> number one, that's significant because it shows an acknowledgment that donald

trump knew what this was about, but it also shows that what that josh steinglass thinks that the points that were scored on cross had to do with dates and little things, little inconsistencies from from what he told the fbi versus what he's saying on the stand. so what steinglass is doing is he's refocusing let's talk about the consistencies, and let's talk about the consistencies about the things that really matter, whether something happened in july or august isn't as important as a thank you. >> yeah. this is significant here. >> because per the transcript, pecker told the grand jury at the time that during his conversation with donald trump, trump said, karen is a good girl, quote and we've got another update, pecker confirms that in his 2018 grand jury testimony testified that trump told him the mcdougal and doorman stories could have been damaging. karen mcdougal could potentially be a witness, but there's some question as to whether it should actually be called the stan yeah. >> she's certainly within the realm of possibility, but what

does she really we add to the story that they can't get from someone else. there's also some concerns about a recent decision and harvey weinstein case that was overturned. they could be complicated with her. it's unlikely. i think at this point, i don't know if you agree that she'll be called to the stand, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility be called to talk about her, not her her caching kill agreement she kinda fits. actually, we just got an update. the prosecution is finished it's redirect of pecker quickly to the question of karen mcdougal. she kinda fits that mold of a throwaway. witnesses we've describing on a friday afternoon, do you think here? >> i would think she's actually a pretty powerful witness because she's going to talk about if she if she testifies, she's going to talk about a year long affair that she had with donald trump. qizan loved with them he was married at the time so i would think that's a pretty that's a pretty salacious witness. yes, she's she's she's not that important to the case, but i think people would but have a

lot of interest in that. i was thinking more of someone who could authenticate a business record or something like that, someone that you've just never heard of before. so let's see, i've always thought mcdougal could actually it's always been hey, good witness for the defense because that unlike the stormy daniels physical relationship, which was several occasions, very transactional, was nearly a year long romantic relationship. she talked about how she was in love with him. this was something that i'm really upset. melania trump, that could really help bolster the defense case, but we'll see what happens. we five or six weeks to my shaimaa pop up. >> we'll see paula, karen. >> thank you both so much. and we just got an update. trump attorney emil beauvais, bringing up the phrase national enquirer gold the defense now starting its re-cross of david pecker, still much more to come on cnn or special coverage continues right after this live from the nation's capital, one of the most unforgettable nights in dc, the sworn-in will read back here again they

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goes all day, sales ending soon. visit your local dealer today. find your nearest dealer at kubota orange days.com closed captioning brought to you by mesobook are firm only represents mesothelial of victims and their families. >> if you or a loved one who has been diagnosed with mesothelioma, call us now welcome back to see you that special coverage of former president trump's criminal hush money trial, like to bring back my panel right down to discuss all the latest developments from inside the courtroom. >> and laura, let's talk about the defense now, cross-examining, read cross-examining. david pecker, the former rep. publisher of the national enquirer. i thought it was significant that he really didn't want to get into the whole stormy daniels issue. >> it is it's one of those things. well, first of all, in the big apple, how many bites at the apple will these prosecutors and defense get at this one witness? you normally think about a direct across

maybe going back the way back yet again which alerts the jury that there were some unfinished business. i can have two different effects. >> on the one hand, adraee could say, oh, something was really important here. >> they need to whittle down on if they don't drill down and if they don't do so, i might miss something. the other thing would be is this sloppy attorneys, i don't have you not been able to do the first time? well and correctly? but the important thing here in terms of why this is important, stormy daniels is the one case. it seems to be the one headline of all the national enquirer headline. they didn't want to touch with a ten foot pole. think about the types of things they've published in the past. this was the case that was different. why? because they had already been burned not only with the discussion on arnold schwarzenegger and having thank him formally be the editor in chief of fitness magazines, and then being some editor at large and those magazines and then having it discovered they had a catch and kill scheme which was embarrassing. the organization then you've got the idea of not being repaid, buy on the issue of karen mcdougal are having a back-and-forth going on there, then you've got the

general counsel of ami saying you don't do not want to be reimbursed by the trump organization or have that on your books and then them saying, i want nothing to do with the porn star. this doesn't really, in many ways comport for people that the salacious headlines would make this sort of headline, not what you wanted except for this donald trump would not be the beneficiary of a publication or a headline. their relations and ship might take a hit and that's what they are trying to establish in this entire testimony it's really interesting because at one point, pecker said he didn't want to. >> stormy daniels to be on the cover of the national enquirer because she was a quote, porn star and that would not look good for the national enquirer to be highlighting a porn star over at various supermarkets around the country. >> i mean, the idea of them looking down their nose at her. i'm sure is probably what the defense will hope to do as well at the one ensuring actually day pecker is now off the stand. we know. oh who the new

person will be. the prosecutors have now called rona graph trump's former longtime assistant to the stand. so that's now the person will go to next and it'll be interesting to see why they've chosen this person. but yet again, another person, a confidant, a friend, an employee, a donald trump, taking a stand against that. >> she is now in the court rumor on a graph, and trump looks over at her as she's walking in. so she's going to be testifying. what do you think? i can see two potential uses to the prosecution of rondo graph. first of all, assistance see things they are there, they're seeing who's coming coming into the office, who's leaving, maybe the door is open, maybe not so assistance can be very powerful. witnesses. the other thing is they may prosecutors may use rondo graph as a vehicle to introduce documents to the jury. do you recognize this? yes. what is that? that's our ledger that we kept. those are our invoices, that kind of thing. so sometimes you do this, you call it a witness to get documents in front of the jury, and then you use those documents to support the key witnesses, including michael cohen. she was also referenced earlier. i

believe in david pecker's first day on the stand. first of all roadgraph did not appear to glance at trump's table on her walk to the witness, then she was a real gatekeeper. anybody who covered donald trump, even before he was published? petition in trump tower. she was a real gatekeeper to donald trump, but i believe i don't have it in front of me. pecker testified that he observed her coming in with invoices and bills, checks to sign, and that donald trump took a personal specific interest in knowing what the invoice was being paid and pudding being a signature on the checks that he wanted paid and that that was in her custody that david pecker observed in trump's mind that prompted him being a micromanager, detail-oriented, to get to donald trump you always had to go through rona graph. i know this personally and rona was somebody i believe she made phone calls for donald trump. i don't know if she listened in on phone calls that donald trump had. that could be very useful testimony if in

fact that was the case, she was very close to donald trump and she was sort of beyond a gatekeeper she, she was almost somebody people would go to and say, well, what do you think mr. trump would say about this or would say about that? so i think that she could be quite a valuable witness in terms of talking about how much attention he paid too detail whom he was talking with, what his relationship with michael cohen was but even the relationship now between them, have they had a falling out? i don't know. i think she's retired, but i don't i really don't know as a prosecution clearly thinks she's going to be beneficial to their case against trump solute and a lot of mundane things you can do. >> so even to your points, gloria, she can so if there are phone records and she can say, do you remember a phone call? hey, look, this is many years ago, but do remember a phone call happening? do you remember being if hope hicks being in this room at the time that of the august 2015 meeting. so in

addition to the broader relationship issues that we're talking about here she can just literally authenticate documents and records and she plays his calls for donald trump's so he'll scream out rona, get me so and so on the phone and she would do that. show no very useful for the defense though, in the set if if in the event that she's able to describe similarly to the way and she's here are testifying by the way, pursuant to a subpoena. she's not walking in voluntarily and saying sign me up to testify against my old boss, but she can be very helpful for the defense in the sense of establishing the motives of say, michael cohen you heard david pecker even make that statement of i told donald trump that he is willing to go in front of a bus for you. he was robust for you and it almost seemed to be capitalized on by the defense trying to suggest that he had his own motives, his own reasons for wanting snow only marc work for mark cuban at one point was brought up i'm wondering if the paparazzi present when he was around to make sure you can buttressed his own credibility in his own esteem. and so she

might be able to talk a little bit about what he was like and whether he was somebody who was an opportunist or somebody who is actually at the behest of trump. and we're forgetting the perhaps the biggest and i'd say most obvious, but we don't know if she can do it. can she say with certainty, did you hear president trump's say the words that he was interested in suppressing these stories for the purpose of benefiting his campaign. perhaps you'll be asked about that she, was in monaco. it's interesting, the trump organization were run a graph, worked for 34 years, is paying for her attorneys right now. >> yeah, that's a really interesting dynamic that does not prohibit her are prevent her from telling the truth, but it does make it a little dicey. this is common practice, i should say frequently when a corporation comes under investigation, the corporation will pay for and provide attorneys for everyone who was an employee and donald trump is a master of doing this. we've seen examples of him doing this everybody from cassidy hutchinson, people involved in the classified documents case as a natural result, it does make it more difficult for

people to come forward and tell the truth but i'll tell you this. prosecutors would not be calling run a graph unless they believed she had come fully clean. >> she can she would be helpful to their she can tell you how the trump organization worked she can tell you how much attention donald trump pain to detail. >> she can talk to you about the relationships between the children and donald trump and michael cohen. sorry, that she was in charge of his calendar. >> like every his goings of gametes right and he would always say ask rona, you know, somebody wants to go see him. >> asked ronan, shall set it up, making the phone calls for him. i mean, she was probably with him more than anybody else during an average de it also 2409 on friday with no court on monday. and so a strategy for prosecution will be thinking about what witness do i need to call and want to call that i could maximize the amount of time, but not necessarily need their testimony to linger and carry through all the way till tuesday when court resumes,

it's not going to be you don't want to end say, or hat introducing karen mcdougal or michael cohen on this day and allow things to fester and just marinate he wants up and who might be just there to move along the introduction of documents and beyond and not have such a problematic credibility issue at the end of the day, it's interesting the prosecution attorney susan hoffinger, is questioning. i run a graph right now. she's answering questions on a whole range of issues. and this is a woman who knows a lot about what was going on at the trump organization and what was going on in trump's life, right? >> so right now, we're see a courts scared officers hitting roadgraph with thumbs. >> i'm not number one. it could be. did some we documents that they're asking her to review or confirm i still get the get back to if there are electronics schedules and she can attest that she was aware of them and frankly made them they can likely be brought in as evidence and she can say on this date, this meeting can happen. and frankly, for a witness like this, you could even use her for a very limited purpose, only have her up there

for a couple hours just to get an a few documents as elie was saying a little bit earlier, a few documents, schedules, and so on. >> and then turn to monday where you call are tuesday where you call it. >> you just said that as far as she could remember, trump never used email to communicate. i can i can confirm that trump several times before he became president united states, and whatever i would go to trump tower to interview him, i could see that he was into paper he was not a to email or nothing like that. >> these are called business records, may not a super technical title, but that is the legal or for what these are, they will be admissible. think about anyone you know, who relies on an assistant think about how much that assistant knows about the day by day, the play by play, and especially because prosecutors have a challenger, this conduct happened eight years ago, almost it's really hard to reconstruct what happened eight years ago, people are not going to remember day by day. but if you can pull off an electronic calendar, if you can pull up call logs it can really help reconstruct the history here. >> this is not a large organization trump organization. she knows

everybody really well and she knows every relationship there and how donald trump regarded people and what he really thought about michael cohen, and how he used michael cohen as his fixer and what the children thought of michael cohen, which was apparently not much and so i think she's she's good for the document part of this, but she's also an important witness, i think to talk about the sort of ethos of the trump organization and how donald trump ran it and how much attention he paid to the receipts. and to what was going on. and also, she can talk about the relationship with david pecker. can you imagine though just taking a step back on what this must feel like for donald trump in this moment. i mean, we know the witness list includes people like hope hicks, michael cohen. michael cohen clearly, no love lost in the sense that we are all very clear at the status of their relationship. >> we're on a graph, somebody

who would have been his right-hand woman thinking about her important role, david pecker, a long-term friend. >> we've seen the pictures outside of the white house, naveen david pecker was invited to sit in meeting with mike pompeo and jame dimon. call me and then told in front of all them he knows more than anyone in this room that all of these people are being paraded in front of him and essentially while he has to sit there in front of a jury of 18 people, where he's under a microscope. this is not the comfortable space that donald trump is accustomed to being in. and by the way, we're nowhere near even close to the middle of this trial. and so just think about what the optics was like. no wonder you're hearing, different reports about how he wants to have the muzzle off the gag order table to go at the different witnesses were talking, but the witnesses we're talking about now are people who is very close to and rona is one of them very close and. she just testified that as far as she could remember, trump never communicated via email and all he was sort of

low-tech, i guess, not high-tech prosecutors also ask graph to to verify several exhibits that are emails she exchanged with madeline western hot, who worked in the trump white house. that's gonna be interesting as well. >> yeah. i mean, obviously he didn't use emails. it doesn't mean that no emails were in the universe of donald trump, which is why you're having other witnesses coming to talk about what they were sending perhaps& his behalf, ps and otherwise, he also we're seeing a little bit more about how he's sitting backing closing his eyes is getting going into detail about the emails that are being sent, which seem to be as common demeanor and the court which by the way, it's interesting to me that he has not yet formed a relationship with this jury we're not hearing a lot about reports about how he is using his via language or otherwise to try to convey how he's feeling in the moment. and we don't have cameras in the courtroom, but it's clear that he will have to demonstrate his disdain at some point also, graph is confirming that to contact she maintained at the trump organization, were for karen mcdougal and stormy daniels go, how did he call karen mcdougal?

>> and i think and i'm also curious as to about two updates ago, these emails were they simply mundane? maybe scheduling matters wherever else. or did they talk about the campaign or did they talk about any of these individuals not out of the question. >> this testimony from renault graph is going to be significant. and very, very interesting. we're going to stand top of it. everyone stay with us much more of our special coverage coming up right after this riyadh say's new of them is breaking records gets to say what country is comey country beyond, say a nashville's renaissance stream? coming exclusively on macs imagine a future where plastic is not wasted. but instead remade over and over into the things that keep our food fresher our families safer and our planet cleaner to help us get there america's plastic makers are investing billions

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unprecedented hush money trial. >> the former president donald trump. i'm wolf blitzer here in the nation's capital and boris sanchez is outside the manhattan courthouse i'm after questions all week about who the trial second witness would be. we now know it's rona graph graph was trump's former assistant for many years. she worked at the trump organization for decades, working directly for donald trump. she is now facing direct examination by the prosecution, boris yeah, we'll graph just testified that she was the person in charge of donald trump's calendar and contracts or reminder? >> she's now the second long time trump confidant to testify. she's on the sand after roughly ten hours of texas testimony from former tabloid executive, david pecker, we just got an update from inside the courtroom about a calendar entry being shown by the prosecution teleprompter practice session on the 25th floor of trump tower on january 16, 2017. let's walk through that minutia and put it in

context with cnn, chief legal affairs corresponds on it. paula reid and former manhattan district attorney prosecutor. karen friedman, agnifilo. thank you so much for being back with us monograph not a name that you would expect would come early on a witness testimony. yeah. but absolutely anticipated that she would come up actually, i mean, this woman had the keys to the kingdom. she saw everything she knew pretty much everyone when you can see here prosecutors just as karen predicted on this show, about an hour ago they're using her to help introduce documents, lay the foundation for the fact that she she knew stormy daniels new karen mcdougal, the contacts were in their now going through his calendar so she can really help them confirm a couple of key dates, contacts, and events. so i think that's why they're going through the calendar, but that's exactly what karen said they do with their last where they two hours four-and-a-half, karen and di predicted we would see a witness like this. what's the significance in this kind of case to have a

witness that we're so close to donald trump that had access not only to his calendar, but two, who he's communicating with so it's clear that what the prosecution strategy here is, which is michael cohen is obviously adverse to donald trump and there's a lot of animosity and hostility between the two of them. >> same with stormy daniels, somebody who he denies having any contact with whatsoever. so the prosecution is literally proving their case through people who are closest to donald trump. first, people who he has no adverse relationship with, no hostility, with no animosity with these are his people. these are the people closest to him they're going to establish as many of their facts to their case. through witnesses that are donald trump's inner circle. so i think it's a very effective strategy because as we saw from the cross-examination of david pecker was not very aggressive. it was there wasn't much that they could do because the two of them have mutual admiration for one another still and as

we're getting updates, it looks like they're going through calendar entries about january 2017 or so. i know they don't like it when i get ahead of the side stream, but we know from our colleagues inside the courtroom that this is already wrapped up corporate route prosecutions questioning. now says necklace isn't the defense team is doing cross, so this is again exactly what karen said would happen. they'd put on a witness to introduce some documents they want to use this 90 minutes for friday. in this particular way. and this is the best way instead of bringing on a significant witness before we get into the cross-examination, there's a question asked during a direct example nation that i thought was interesting. they asked her about donald trump's use of email. why is that significant? >> i think because you're not going to see a paper trail between donald trump and anybody in this day and age, most criminal trials involve some form of electronic footprint that will corroborate information whether it's text messages or emails or other other communications between people. and i think the prosecution's theory here is

that michael cohen spoke on behalf of donald trump to david pecker and others, including via email and text message. and so it's not unusual that you're not going to see, although, although you have statements from david pecker that he spoke directly to donald trump and donald trump told him to do certain things. the only document, documentation of it that you're going to see via email and text message are gonna be through other people because he didn't donald trump himself didn't utilize that. so i think that's what they're trying to establish their fact that we came to know well, covering the white house during donald trump's administration, he's not an email guy. big paper. >> no. i mean, i want to touch on two updates here. now, the defense attorneys are asking rid of graph about her work there, and it's actually a very warm exchange here. they're asking if she enjoyed her time there. she talked about how it was a very exciting, stimulating place to be they also asked you if trump respected her intelligence. she said she wouldn't have worked there for 34 years if it didn't. and this is the first time trump is apparently

smiling, kind of laughing. he seems to be enjoying this now again, she worked for him for decades. he's also paying for her lawyer. but your question about emails, what's amazing to me is that the heart of this case or documents, business records, i'll paper trail something trump is famous for never leaving the way he speaks even that someone could recount a conversation and tie him to something he's very careful, not a texter, not an email, or is always very careful not to leave a paper trail. so the fact that we're here on a case about falsifying documents to help in a campaign of all the criminal investigations into former president trump. i'm surprised it's this one that brings us to trial for the first time. >> it is significant remember, reports of him tearing up pieces of paper. he never liked to keep pieces of paper paula and karen. thank you both so much. appreciate it. wolf will send it back to you. >> okay. thanks very much. trump's attorney is now a cross-examining run a graph. trump attorney susan necklace laura coates so far, what are jurors learning from renault graph that stands out to you? >> well, i think you're seeing

that her role here is not to try to undermine the credibility of another witness, but just to be rao the eyes and the ears pecker said he was going to be in his catch and kill scheme, but in a much more friendly way, this is not a time to as a cross-examining her to attack her as if she is out to get donald trump during to cfs softer touch for this particular witness. she's talking about her experiences on trump. she is the role for the defense to humanize him you hear a lot about the myth of donald trump. and of course, all the bravado, what you think might happen in trump tower, her role is to demystify all of that and portray him as somebody who is approachable blade, which talks about saying of trump sometimes he would peak his head and her office and say, go home to your family. that was very thoughtful of him talking about it being a fair caring, respectful, both the he respected her intelligence. now, you're looking at a woman testifying about this as well, but the power of optics all this time, we've been hearing about the tabloids of karen mcdougal of a stormy daniels,

and the perception of course, within the access hollywood tape, it's being referenced, although not actually play it because it's too prejudicial according the judge which is paying the picture of somebody who's not respectful of women, somebody who is in fact disrespectful of women's, somebody who would have perhaps massage enlisting viewpoints. this is a woman testifying about a 34 year professional relationship where she is respected for her intelligence, where she is being treated fairly. this exactly what the defense wants to accomplish this hour and being questioned by a female attorney. and i wonder, look, there's all kinds of reasons why on a trial team you pick one person to question one witness or another, but it is striking in terms of some of the points you're making, laura, that i think the first time we've seen susan mykolas, do. well, of course the second witness, but still and the prosecution who was also a woman in this context as well. and the three inch and dj, who was also invited, apparently at the heart of the inauguration she got to sit up close. >> it'll be interesting to see you know, just work at this

gender question, how they handle stormy daniels on both sides, who doesn't want to. she comes to tests when she comes testified, yet. >> well, so clearly, the donald trump's defense lawyers are using her as a mini character witness, which you're borderline allowed to do, but it's the kind of thing that can slide through. >> in most cases. but the reason they called her as brought prosecutors is simply to get in these documents and it's also important to note when we're thinking about the pacing of this case witnesses can be four days law. we just saw with pecker and they can be 20 minutes long, like we're saying, with ronan graph. so there's going to be days where we get through not even one one witness is on stand all day. there's going to be days where we could have three, four, or five witnesses on the stand. what prosecutors need to do. now is present these documents to the jury in a way that they can understand. this is a chunk prosecutors are bad at this. prosecutors do not know how to stage things. and so they need to we used to say you need to think about it like you're putting on a theater production. how am i going to show these ledgers in a way where the jury's can understand them can make sense of them, and you're going to need somebody to walk you through them. i thought they might try

that with coronagraph, but somebody else is going to be the tour guide through those documents would it be michael cohen? i'd be really reluctant to do that, but somebody has to say, yes, here's what the entry shows for this. yes, here's what this phone records shows her to do that sorry. why wouldn't hurt? >> no, i don't know. >> maybe she wouldn't be in position to do that. there may be actual participants in the meetings who they want to show, okay. this shows that there was a meeting on january 17, 2017. were you in fact, at that meeting? yes, i was. is that reflected here? sure. who else was there? it was a, b, and c important. roadgraph said she to the best of her knowledge, trump never communicated via email. why should we care about well, it was a fax? and i think it's just getting out there. the fact that you're not going to find facts related to the case via email are there any thing damning about the former president in this case is going to come in the form of testimony from other people to the point as to her and these documents another thing to know about the mechanics of a trial

is that unless both parties agree to a piece of evidence coming in someone has to introduce whether it's a ledger or a document or a schedule and authenticate it in effect, be able to say this is what we say it is and it is now admitted into evidence. it has to come in through a witness. these documents came in through her and then as ellie was saying, she can be someone will be questioned about also pointed out that graph had the contact information, the contexts for both stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, what do you make of that? oh, it's a big well, again, someone has to someone it has to be able to testify to the fact that the way that trump tower had the contact information and interacted with these people and the person who can do that, who has that first-hand knowledge is the gatekeeper the median connect down here as to why stormy daniels may have been in trump tower and i don't know, but it seems that trump's lawyer i after a series of questions about trump's interest in casting celebrity apprentice

prosecutors object. >> lawyers are at the bench. it seems that there this stormy daniels being at trump tower somehow got connected to the trump team wanting to make the case that he was very interested in casting celebrity apprentice. i think the natural question that jury, the jurors are thinking about when they here while he's got karen mcdougal stormy daniels contact information is why white, right? it doesn't sound good for him and put what trump's lawyers appear to be trying to do now is to give an innocuous why and if it had something to do with celebrity apprentice or something else then that takes it down a notch in terms of its impact and don't forget though, it doesn't. i mean, for the purpose of the jury what they have to prove as the prosecutors is that falsifying business records they have to prove their are some intent to defraud intend to commit another crime or aid to conceal the commission of and that they had a false entry. they don't actually have to prove there was ever an affair. they don't actually have to improve prove that's where my daniel's was not a celebrity apprentice yes, maybe casting call. they don't

have to prove they all they have to prove is that there was some basis tied the election that made donald trump team nervous enough to try to pay and falsified business records and so the fact that there is contact information for only karen mcdougal and termini annulus is important to buttress the credibility of the fact that there was a knowing relations in ship of summer interactions, some kind. but the ultimate question of whether they had an affair different, but then graph says that she vaguely recalls hearing trump's say that she was one of the people that may be an interesting contest and talking about stormy daniels, but that it was all part of the office chatter. i mean, just keep in mind this person, wrote a graph, sat on the platform for the inauguration. that's how important and how close she was the donald trump. and she says of the his her presence, that's why she assumed that she was even at trump tower. remember the prosecution tried to suggest that she was there as if there was an ongoing protect are leaving it out there to linger. there was some sort of ongoing relationship. she's cutting thing that down. so i would expect maybe

opportunity for a redirect if possible. it's good defense work here because what they're doing is putting forward an alternate theory for the crime that's alleged. >> what is alleged here is that the conduct around these relationships was was personal and not tied to campaigns. what they can say here's no, these were just the way we interact with these people merely because they were going to be on a show that casting he another way for donald trump to keep stormy daniels. do as a defense attorney is provide plausible explanations that the jury can latch onto if they want to. i'm not saying i buy it either, but this just to give a sense into what might be in necklaces had as she's going through this question, what does it tell you about donald trump i mean, here he is trying to cast celebrity apprentice& here he is thinking, gee, maybe stormy daniels would be somebody who'd be interesting to have on that show, forgetting about

their past relationship i mean, it's so donald trump, right? >> he's thinking this would be interesting for people to watch. and rona graph observes everything she's talking about, office chatter. she knew what was going on at the water cooler there at the trump organization? so i think she can be valuable in that way as well. she's the ultimate loyalist to donald trump. she likes him. she worked for him for 34 years. he was good to her. and let's see what the what the calendar reveals. >> know if the prosecution notified the trump lawyers like susan necklace, who's questioning, run a graph right now in advance that roadgraph would be the second witness, so we don't know about the sequencing question, but they certainly notified the defense that wrong photograph would be a witness. and also important to know, we don't do trial by surprise in this country. all these documents that are on a graph was just shown an authenticated and are now in evidence the defense has had those for many, many months.

that's what when we we talk about discovery, we use that phrase. that means the prosecution's the obligation to turn over all that evidence to the defense in advance or everybody stand by. our special coverage of the former president's trial will continue right after this. we'll talk also with a retired judge who spent nearly 20 here's on the bench, will get some special insight about how the judge in trump's case is handling this landmark trial seeking titanic. how would really happen, especially to our premier sunday at nine on cnn sunglasses brand new

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assistant, rona graph, is done testifying and were told hold just a moment ago that the court has taken a 15-minute break and afternoon recess. let's discuss this in more with retired judge ladoris hazard cordell hello. she spent 19 years on the bench in california. she's also the author of the book, her honore of my life on the bench. what works, what's broken, and how to change it. judge. thank you so much for being with us this afternoon. first, i want to get your reaction to this testimony by rona graph. it was fairly quick and it lasted in total, i think less. than, an hour what she was called by the prosecution and what the prosecution is doing is giving the jurors a story and building on the story. >> so the first witness was mr. pecker, and he lays the groundwork kinda talking about how all this works with interacting with trump and and with the newspaper. the tabloid. and so then, now is

the next step. and so what the prosecution doing is doing what they should do and what all prosecutors do is they're telling a story and this is the next person to reveal a little bit more information to get them where they're going. so that's why this witness wasn't on long. she was there for specific purpose cross-examination was along and off. she went i just want to give our viewers a quick update from our reporters inside the courtroom. >> apparently, donald trump has walked out of the room with a stern expression, clutching a stack of documents as he continues to scan both sides of the courtroom. >> judge cordell i'm curious to get your perspective on the pace of the proceedings this far, because really we've had testimony from one witness over several days. that was the former polish publisher, david pecker and just about an hour of testimony from this long time, trump assistant are things moving at a proper speed from your point-of-view?

>> well, the speed of the trial is determined mainly by the trial judge. as you noted, i've presided over trials for a long time. and when you have a jury, you keep your eye. if you're trying to on the jury, are they nodding off? are they not paying attention? and so you want to have the trial move along and the people who can slow it down are the lawyers. so if the question be questioning becomes tedious and it seems not quite relevant, that can be a problem. so with this trial, things are moving smoothly and they are moving as they should they take more time with witnesses. they think are more important than other witnesses? so the groundwork is being laid and i think the pace is one absolutely. >> a good one. and i haven't heard any reports from those inside the courtroom that the jurors appear to be uninterested in not paying attention that is a good point. i do want to ask you about judge merchan, not yet ruling on the gag orders rather, the

gag order. these complaints coming from the prosecution of donald trump has made repeated post on social media remarks before cameras attacking witnesses go going after different folks, taking part in the proceedings. there was a hearing earlier this week, i think on tuesday that took about two hours of time i'm going into the details. there was an additional filing for potential new violations. prosecutors argue, what do you think the judges delaying a decision on? on this well, first of all, this is what's called indirect contempt. >> it's criminal contempt, but indirect because the contempt didn't occur right in front of the judge. so there was a hearing on ten violations that the prosecution claims what's committed by donald trump. and so now they have four more. they have filed for more violations. so we're talking a total of 14. >> so if we look at the first ten, the judge heard evidence,

you have to have an evidentiary hearing when it's indirect contempt direct content would be if donald trump were to do something in front of the judge, then there wouldn't be an evidentiary hearing because the judge would be the eyewitness. >> so in this instance, the judge has delayed giving a ruling, but in the question is why well, i think one reason is that if your trial judge there's tremendous pressure on your anyway, just generally every day when you go to court, but when you are presiding over a high-profile trial, and i have done that in terms of high-profile within mylocation in silicon valley in california. but this is just way over the top high profile, there is tremendous pressure on the judge because everything the judge says everything the judge orders is under a microscope. so when you're under that kind of pressure, you are deliberate. you don't do anything that's rushed. >> and this instance, he has to first of all, he has to make a decision. >> you're not a good trial judge. if you don't like making decisions he has to make a

decision. and the key here is a decision has to be one that punishes once if he determines there were violations, i can't imagine the judge will find that there were no violations and he's already warned that donald trump and donald trump has been fined before. but here's what's unprecedented what's unprecedented is if this judge decides that incarceration is appropriate, that's never been done to a former president. so if that is going to happen, i can appreciate the judge being very deliberate and likely have a written decision the judge could sentence donald trump two up to 30 days in jail for each violation. and that's just the first ten so i can appreciate that, but he's going to have to rule that's what trial judges do. and he's going to have to make a decision judge ladoris hazard cordell, we very much appreciate the perspective. thanks for being with us. >> thank you wael trial of

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regain his lunch break. try now for free visit otter.ai, ai or download the app on your house solomon in new york cnn welcome back to cnn's special coverage. >> if former president donald trump's criminal hush money

trial, run a graph, trump's former longtime assistant took the stand after days of testimony from the x tabloid publisher david pecker. but unlike pecker, she was on the stand for just a very short time. and now we're waiting to see who the next witness is going to be. my panel is joining us now to discuss the latest developments from inside the courtroom. and laura, did both sides seem to accomplish what they were trying to accomplish, at least so far today, it appears so if you look at the goals of any witness, now, every one witness is not going to give you everything you need. every person is not going to prove if your entire case and every witness not going to give you that either, that perry mason moment or that blockbuster who ordered the code red, that people might think happens in court rooms, but doesn't actually happen in courtrooms. the purpose of this witness, it seemed was to introduce documents to demonstrate the he did not use email. maybe that was used by the prosecution is suggests that there'll be other witnesses you have rely on for the information you seek. also, that triangles have been in trump tower before he ran for the presidency and announces election. and that there was also contact

information for both karen mcdougal and termini. they don't have to actually prove as the prosecutors. and there was ever any sexual liaisons or an affair. but what they do have to prove is a way to by trust or credibility of their other witnesses. now, on the other side for the defense, their goal seemed to be look recognize this as a friendly witness to you. don't have to unduly cross-examine this person, demonstrates and humanize donald trump. she did just that talking about them as being respectful boss is somebody who affected her intelligence, who is often fair and decent in her role, how close she was. she was so close this person for 34 years when it was time for his inauguration, she was on the platform. that's how close she was to him and think they've all accomplished that. but on the other side of this, if you're the prosecution this case and you think you're going to call a witness at the end of the de and say, all right, your honor, i think hate to start the next witness this here are the judge is like, who's your next witness? prosecutors. you said you called ready let's go. who's next? >> let's find out who's going to be third. the third witness.

what do you make the pacing so far this trial, the judge is moving the trial along. so case in point, what's look back to last week and jury selection which truly could have taken weeks if the judge had gone through every one of these perspective jurors who raised their hands and said they couldn't be fair to donald trump. and he questioned each one of them individually, which he was allowed to do to try to rehabilitate them and get them to give an honest answer. so that they could be fair on a jury that could have added weeks to the trial. i think he's moving it along in a lot of it really is on the judge now, setting aside that the judge has not ruled on this gag order, which is a sort of looming question over the trial, is it nothing's have normal here. the idea of david pecker testifying for ten hours, but rona graph testifying for what was it, 20 or 30 minutes is also not alarming based on what you wish to get. these two witnesses. one was a critical fact witness talking about firsthand interactions with the defendant. another one came in to get a couple of documents into evidence and get out of

there. and that's it. >> what do they do with those document? in other words, they got documents, probably the calendar from rona graph so they can raise them at any at any point. i mean, she doesn't have to be on the witness stand up. it does not so here's what can someone can testify as to what's in them, assuming it's not hearsay because even a statement written in a calendar can be hearsay depending on what the exceptions are. >> so number one, someone can testify to it. number two, they can argue to it because now it's evidenced at trial, even if the jury hasn't said it, so they can say in their closing argument, ladies and gentlemen, you have now as exhibit 14 a a calendar that has an entry that i'm making this up, everybody, but that has stormy daniels entering trump tower on x date take a look at it. see for yourself, you know that this happened on that day do you trump has returned to the courtroom these back inside. he's no longer carrying papers for whatever that means. but judge merchan is now back on the bench as well. so this is about to resume what stood out to you the most glory about run graphs customer, her loyalty

she's adoring of donald trump. i mean, she is worked for him for 34 years. she said he treated her very well. she said that she didn't want to be there on the witness stand. the only reason she was there, obviously, it's because she got a subpoena and, you know, it's very clear to me that this is the kind of loyalty that donald trump loves. he apparently smiled when she was, when she was on the witness stand she's valuable because potentially because of those documents she did see stormy daniels out there in the waiting room so i think we just have to see what the calendar shows, but she was somebody that the defense can use and say human eyes, donald trump, to a great degree about how he treated if someone who worked for him one small, small bit of caution, i would give to the world about any piece of evidence sometimes something like a calendar can literally be two up did to demonstrate that to people interacted on a

day can be to demonstrate that that it was a wednesday as opposed to a tuesday, and not this is the moment at which we know that the defendant committed the crime. some things are just totally monday. everyone. >> thank you very, very much. everybody standby are special coverage this historic criminal trial will continue straight ahead sunday. the rise of ms don't you? >> live in reports from the front lines. >> pharaoh knows taylor swift is a government site you don't believe taylor swift as i don't know what to believe the whole story with anderson cooper sunday at eight on cnn, with the fund drives innovation fund. >> you can invest in some of the world's top tech companies, including those leading the ai revolution. before they go public the future is now open for investment toe fungus is tough to kill and it can spread. >> it's time to start using funky nail, maximum strength bungie nail is so powerful, it cures and prevents fungal infections. plus it has aloe

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stand gary pharaoh. paula reid is with us. paula gary pharaoh, not exactly a household name. >> not even named those known very well to those of us who are covering this. >> so prosecutors clearly using the last hour, maybe on a friday before a three-day break does bring in some witnesses who can likely help them introduce some exhibits, right? verify some documents because at the core of this, this is a paperwork case, right. allegation 34 counts of falsifying business records. so there's a few things we're still waiting. we're getting these great updates from our colleagues in the courtroom. there's a few different things he could be testifying about. he could be testifying about payments made to stormy daniels. we also know that michael cohen he had to borrow against his home to pay stormy daniels to that could also be why he has been called to the stand, but we expect this to be a pretty quick appearance. by this witness, mr. pharaoh, to likely just help them bring in some documents that they're going to need over the next few weeks? >> yeah. again, a friday afternoon, not much time to go before court is set to wrap for

the de it's gonna be a long weekend for these jurors. you don't want to use an impactful witness right now. paula reid. thanks so much for the update. let's discuss the trial, mourn out with carolyn cooks. she's a trial and jury consultant. carolyn. thank you so much for being with us. so the first two witnesses of wrapped both of them fairly close to donald trump, david pecker, a longtime friend, assisted him with these catch and kill stories. the national enquirer, then his longtime assistant, rona graph, one of second and now third, we're hearing from bank employee what do you think of the sequence of witnesses that the prosecution has called well you know, i i never really know what other people strategy is in it could just be what apologize said, you have to lay the groundwork to get these documents in and these are the people you have to do it and i'm just speculating, of course, but i'm thinking maybe the prosecution is concerned that these are witnesses who

have long time positive relationship, ships was donald trump's. so if you're trying to demonize donald trump and make him seem like he's guilty you might not want to close with witnesses who have a long-term positive relationship. and so even if you just look at run a graph who worked for him for 34 years that's almost an unheard of amount of loyalty that one person can give to another. if you think about most marriages, that's a really long time. and so they might be worried that her positive feelings for trump are going to eke out and they might want jurors to forget about that by the time it's the jury's turned to deliberate that is fascinating perspective. >> i am curious about one part of her testimony. she was asked point blank. >> you don't want to be here on the witness stand, do you? >> and she said no? prosecutors essentially had to compel her testimony. how do you think a

jury proceeds that well, i mean, most people don't. probably the jurors don't want to be there either. possibly. they probably got over that. >> in most witnesses are subpoenaed i think jurors just understand and jurors or the common sense experts, so they probably understand how awkward it would be if you have a 34 year relationship and this person's your boss, and now you're subpoenaed and you're supposed to be quote-unquote helping in his prosecution. that's just an awkward position to be in but the jurors are going to eat jurors are so good at reading between the lines and focusing on is this person telling the truth and what part of their testimony do i need to rely on to come to a decision? >> so ultimately, i don't think it'll really sway people one way or another. >> yeah it's carolyn cook. thank you so much for the perspective. appreciate you being with us you're welcome of course, our special coverage

of donald trump hush money trial continues in just a moment when the jinx came out, i thought, oh, my god, when bob has a friend, he expects blind loyalty ravid surprise, surprise the future is not just going to happen. you have to make it and if you want a successful business, all it takes is an idea. and now becomes the future. a future where you grew a dream into a reality. >> it's waiting for you mere minutes away the future is nothing but power and it's all yours. >> the all new godaddy arrow, get your business online in minutes with the power of ai, we handcraft every stearns and

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doug, thanks very much for joining us as we approach the end of this first week of testimony at trump's hush money case, what's your perspective on this historic trial? >> well, first off, i think it's been a good week. the trial seems to be moving smoothly. there hasn't been a lot of outside agitation unreasonably blocking streets with protest or anything trump seems to be taking the strategy of being bored, closing his eyes. that this is it's just a witch hunt against election interference. he has predicted will use the courthouse steps any chance he get as i can't paint platform, but i don't think it's going well for trump. i think the evidence seems to be very strong. what does one juror decide can make get difference, but this isn't helpful for trump's reelection campaign. wolfe even if it affects, if, if a guilty plea comes in, he may is not going to go to jail. he he might have

two. it'll be appeal till after the election, but it's a big dent. i think it just shows you, i think the whole all trial, it's just it's sort of a can of worms. it's just a you of what kind of business person trump was and why he may not be fit for command to be back in the white house. >> and as you pointed out, trump has been blasting the charges against him outside the courtroom. he's also possibly violated the judge's gag order several times that was aimed to prevent him from attacking potential witnesses and others. what do you make of trump's rhetoric and the way he's carried himself in this case. >> i think it's utterly despicable. >> there's no former president in american history would have behaved in this sort of ridiculous and ugly fashion. >> he's putting people at risk all the time and he doesn't care. it's really reckless behavior but in the end, this

jury's going to make decision and we're going to have to live with the result. i think it's unfortunate that things keep getting that can keeps getting kicked down the road till after an election. but hence we have appeals. and if he's found guilty, he will do that. he may get a bounce out of milwaukee on july 15th, trump, even if he's convicted and he'll be playing the martyr but in the end, anybody who's sitting in the middles, there, this guy just can't be back yet. you may not like biden, you may not like third party candidates or the like, but trump just seems to be at this point, just so toxic that i don't know who wants to be in the neighborhood with them as you know, trump earlier suggested he would testify in his own defense. now he says, i'm testify if necessary. but do you believe he will and just how unprecedented would that be for former president of the united states? >> theodore roosevelt once had a couple of these miners deals where he went in, when he was

in a court on a libel case that he was bringing. you knew he'd read a book or find things, but we've never had anything like this. this is and as we know, very well, that's just one of trump's legal woes. we're dealing with somebody who behaves like a mafia kingpin or dictator, somebody within authoritarian bent but it is amazing how well he learned the sleazy sayyed of american tabloid industry. his whole life, he became big in the 80s trump became a household name and it's always been one scam after another. but this time the interference within election hush money payments, it's not about the money of 130,000 and it's not the fact that they were adult film stars. it's just the amount of sleeves that comes out of the man from mar-a-lago. it's hard to compare it to any other president in american history. you'd have to really start

getting into a bag of of scoundrels or cons failed bizarre rep. al-fakhoura to understand this milieu that he's chosen to live in as his life, but he'll say, i've been successful i've been pressing and you're not douglas brinkley? doug is a professor of history at rice university, president essentialist doreen, thanks, douglas, very, very much. and we'll be right back beyonce's new album is breaking records partisans of, country music, saying, this is not eight country this is not like, oh black people are getting into now we've been in country music gets to say, what country, what the south is about. comey country beyond, say a nashville's renaissance streaming exclusively on mac what do you think about these

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plan that's right for you at trust and we'll dot com the lead with jake tapper next on cnn we are back on the courthouse in manhattan for donald trump's hush money trial. >> and paula reid is with us. paula i don't extensive research on this case and

preparation for covering it. and the guy that's on the stand right now, never heard him. >> yeah. uncovered this case for about seven years now, and i also have never heard of this young man gary pharaoh. he is on the stand. he clearly, according to his testimony, he has a banking relationship with michael cohen, he was assigned to cohen's account because quote, cohen was known to be challenging mr. fair. apparently it was good with difficult clients but he insisted cohen is not difficult, but we haven't gotten to really why he is on the stand. we don't know if this is gonna be about payments to stormy daniels or cohen's home equity line. it's unclear, but stay tuned because we continue to get these lives updates from inside the court bit of a mystery late on a friday afternoon, paula reid. thank you so much i've or sanchez in new york and i'm wolf blitzer here in washington. much more of our specialty what coverage of the trial is coming up and i'll be back in two hours in the situation room 6:00 p.m. eastern. but the lead with jake tapper starts right now