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Understanding 9/11tv Defense Secretary Joint Chiefs of Staff Chair Testify on Presidents 2025... CSPAN May 9, 2024 2:11am-4:12am EDT
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conflict between israel and hamas and the russia-ukraine war. appointing before a senate appropriations -- on the 2025 budget request. you're watching live coverage on c-span3 . >> i want to call this hearing to order. good morning.
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i want to welcome our witnesses, secretary austin and general brown. we appreciate you being with us here today. general brown, this is your first appearance before the subcommittee. your position today, and i want to thank you for your commitment and long-standing service to our nation. secretary austin, lester, when you testified before this committee, we discussed the -- default. thankfully, cooler heads prevailed and we were able to come together with a bipartisan matter to avoid a catastrophic government shutdown but we have failed miserably in getting the budget down on time. here we are, more than halfway through the fiscal year and you just got your budget, albeit six months late. these repeated delays have real impact and i hope you will illustrate for us the impact of these late budgets and constant continuing resolutions. we are meeting today to discuss dod's $803.5 billion budget
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request for the next fiscal year. this is a 1% increase above last year's budget and it is consistent with the budget caps that were agreed to in the bipartisan fiscal responsibility act. on a side note, i will tell you this, mr. secretary. the ranking member collins and myself think we need a bigger number. that reason for that, and you know this better than i, is because of we are going to invest in future technologies, this number has to be bigger. the military services and the commands are telling us they have unfunded requirements and excess of $20 billion. the price of fuel is much higher, our military is engaged in operations around the world. the national security supplemental that congress cleared just last month, some eight months after the ministration presented addresses some of those concerns . it includes important funds that support ukraine's continue fighting -- we have given to
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the ukrainians, supports israel's air defense capability , and provides much-needed infusion of cash to pay for operations in the red sea and investing capabilities critical. that alone will not help you or us get the job done. because of the bipartisan budget caps on the fy 25 budget request is roughly $10 billion below what you had planned for last year at this time. we need to understand what risk this lower budget creates for military personnel for operations around the globe and the modernization efforts. we have to get a budget done so the men and women in uniform can go about their business of keeping america safe. i support the ongoing efforts to
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chart a path forward that will work and will work with anyone to get this job done. once again, thank you, gentlemen, for being here. thank you for your testimony, before you begin your opening remarks, i want to recognize susan collins, senator collins, for her opening statement. >> thank you very much, chairman tester, for holding this very important hearing. general brown, as this is your first time testifying before the subcommittee, in your capacity as chairman of the joint steve substance -- chiefs of staff, let me join the chairman and extending a special welcome to you. i also want to thank both of our witnesses, as well as the comptroller for your service and the service of the men and women you represent. i look forward to hearing from you, how the president's fiscal year 2025 budget request will affect the department's implementation of the 2022 national defense security strategy. the goals of which i largely
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support. we must be clear that this budget request would represent a real cut in funding for the department of defense, as it fails to keep pace with inflation. it proposes a defense funding increase of just 1%, $8.6 million, relative to the current fiscal year. that amount is well short of the 22.5 billion year over year increase that the department would need, simply to cover projected costs relating to fuel, military and civilian pay and medical care. this is a nearly $14 billion shortfall. it being said, the presidents request shifts funding away from modernization, readiness, and procurement. to cover these
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must pay costs, if the world were becoming safer, then perhaps it could be absorbed with little risk and national security, but unfortunately, that is not the world in which we live. russian president vladimir putin continues his brutal bombardment in ukraine. hamas refuses to return the remaining 133 hostages, including five americans who have been held for 214 days since hamas' attack on israel. iran and its proxies continue to fan the flames of violence throughout the middle east and china's military budgets and navy continue to grow, including a 7.2% increase in defense spending in the chinese
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budget, compared to last year. in the past few months, two of our combatant commanders have told me that the threats we face today are the most dangerous than any that they have seen in any time during their careers. in addition, we see a resurgence of isis, k, and other -- blinking red in terms of a potential terrorist attack on us were western allies. indeed, we've seen terrorist attacks. the proposed inventory divestment and cuts to shift the vehicle and aircraft procurement, included in the presidents budget request would require us to incur excessive risk without there being any
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discernible reduction in the threats facing our country. the budget request would result in the smallest air force fleet in the service history. we would have the smallest army since the start of the volunteer force in 1973. our naval fleet of 290 ships is already small, -- more than 370 . under this budget, the navy's overall fleet would grow by just one ship, a single ship, during the next five years. far fewer than the -- china will have. the technological and high-end capabilities that we have enjoyed since the end of the cold war is also eroding. it's being directly challenged by china and russia.
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on a more positive note, i want to commend you, mr. secretary, and your teams, for efforts to make the department more innovative and, in taking steps to strengthen the industrial base. finally, i would be remiss if i did not use this opportunity to thank chairman tester and chair murray for working with leader mcconnell over the last several months. indeed, this entire subcommittee, to get the national security supplemental across the finish line. these investments will help to strengthen our own military and defense industrial base, while supporting key partners abroad. from the portsmouth naval yard in southern maine to the defense finance accounting service facility in northern maine along our canadian
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border, and many places in between, thousands of mainers proudly support and contribute to our nation's defense, -- which builds naval destroyers and -- which manufactures military jet engines perform essential roles in support of our national security. all of the men and women who serve our country, whether in uniform or in the defense industrial base or as a civilian federal employee deserve a budget that supports them. i look forward to hearing from our distinguished witnesses today. >> thank you, senator collins. first up, we will have secretary austin. appreciate you being here, mr. secretary. you have the floor. >> chairman tester, ranking member collins, establish members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify in support of president biden's proposed fiscal year 20 2025 for the department of
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defense. i'm pleased to be joined by our outstanding chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, general cq brown and the departments comptroller, michael corr. let me thank you for supporting everything we do -- and our military families. -- and succeeding through teamwork. are budget request for fiscal year 2025 will advance all three of these priorities. first, the presidents request will invest in cutting-edge capabilities across all domains. that includes $48.1 billion for naval and shipbuilding capabilities, $61.2 billion to reinforce u.s. air dominance, and $13 billion to reinforce army and marine corps combat
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capabilities. our request will also -- to strengthen our space architecture and $14.5 billion to develop and field advanced cyber security tools. it will direct $49.2 billion to modernize and recapitalize all three -- of our nuclear triad. it will sharpen our tech edge through $167.5 billion investment in procurement and $143.2 billion in r&d. second, this budget request will support our outstanding troops in their families -- and their families. that includes raising baseplate -- base pay and investing in better housing, making childcare more affordable and -- sexual assault and suicide in
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the military. third, this request will help the department further deepen our teamwork, worldwide. our network of allies and partners remains a strategic advantage that no competitor can match. you can see it's power in our strengthening ties across the indo pacific, and in today's expanded and united nato and in the 50 country ukraine defense contact route that i convene. are budget remains rooted in the 2022 national defense strategy. i request positions the united states to tackle the departments pacing challenge, the people's republic of talent -- china, with accuracy. it will help meet the acute threat of putin , it will help take on the threats from north korea and global terrorist organizations, and other malign actors and it will help us continue to deter aggression against the united states and
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our allies and partners and to prevail in combat, if necessary. not today, i want to underscore three key messages. even as our budget requests abides by the mandatory camps set by the physical response ability act, it's aligned to our strategy. we may tough but responsible decisions that prioritize readiness, modernization of the joint force, and support for our troops in the families. our approach dials back some near-term not set to come online until the 2030s. second, we can only fully reach the goals of our strategy with your help. i'm grateful that congress passed a fiscal year 2024 appropriations in march and the single greatest way that congress can support the department is to pass predictable, sustained, and timely appropriations.
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my third and final message is that the price of u.s. leadership is real. but it is far lower than the price of u.s. advocation. we are in a global struggle between democracy and autocracy and our security relies on american strength of purpose. >> israel is committing war crimes. it is to be in violation of u.s. law. -- >> you may proceed. >> in our security relies on american strength of purpose, and that's why our budget request seeks to invest in american security and in america's defense industrial base. the same is true for the
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recently passed national security supplemental that will support our partners in israel, ukraine, and taiwan, making investments to increase submarine production. creating good jobs and more than 30 states. so we are grateful for our partners in congress who help us make the investments needed to strengthen america's security through both the supplemental and the president's budget request. united states military is the most lethal fighting force on earth. with your help, we are going to keep it that way. i deeply appreciate your support for our mission and our troops, and i look forward to your questions. thank you, chairman. >> secretary austin, thank you for your testimony. next, we will have general brown. general brown, you have the floor. >> distinguished members of the -- i'm honored to join but to appear before you today.
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-- -- i want to thank you for passing the -- which provides vital support to our allies, and our defense industrial base. strengthen our -- in preparation for any future contingency. the global security environment is increasingly complex. the 2022 national defense strategy identifies five key challenges. the people's republic of china, our pacing challenge, continues its risky behavior around the globe. in newly aggressive russia, with its unprovoked war against ukraine. a reckless iran, we saw a few weeks ago, who attempts to escalate -- with proxy forces. destabilizing north korea, which threatens regional security, and -- which leverage
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instability to advance their cause. these challenges are interconnected, which demands a strategic approach addressing the immediate threats while preparing for future contingencies. it requires all of us to operate with a sense of urgency. days after becoming chairman, i laid out three expectations in my message to the joint force. -- modernizing with new concepts and approaches, and trust is the foundation of our profession. our military exist to fight our nation's wars. we train every day to ensure we are still good at what we do that we deter the adversary for engaging u.s. in conflict. this budget request hundred $47
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billion to sustain readiness and ensure the department can counter near-term threats. we are also focused on better integrating our allies and partners and are planning operations by investing in critical programs and capability, exercises, training, and in operability. investments ensure the joint force can respond when the nation calls. while we are focused on this today, it is critical to modernize these concepts to prepare for tomorrow. -- to outpace our competitors while transforming from costly legacy platforms that are no longer relevant to the threat. this budget strategically invest one point -- to equip the joint force with unparalleled combat capabilities across every campaign. this budget also invest hundred $43.2 billion in research, the test and future communities -- capabilities. finally, it digital innovation,
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multiyear procurement of critical and the strengthened industrial base. with rapidly evolving threats, modernization is critical. lastly, trust is the foundation. joint force must build upon and uphold the trust of each other, trust of our families, trust of our elected leaders, and trust of our nation. enhancing the quality of service on the quality of life for our personnel is not just an obligation. it's a strategic imperative. the budget includes investments in quality of service efforts, such as advanced training, educational benefits, and career development, while also investing in projects like housing, medical clinics, and childcare facilities. as well as funding -- and robust programs to combat sexual assault. we must create an environment where all can reach their full
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potential. trust that our joint force stands ready, ready to defend our national interest, ready to deter aggression, and ready, if necessary, to fight and win our nation wars. i think you for your support and collaboration to face the security challenges of the day and prepare for tomorrow. we are living in consequential times and there's no time to waste. thank you, and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you for your statement, general brown, and there will probably be be multiple rounds, but there will be five minutes per member. this is for you, secretary austin. the budget request is consistent with the fiscal responsibility act however, the proposed growth is below current inflation levels. it does not account for billions of dollars for additional requirements in identified by the military services. as has been pointed out by both of you, this is a very dangerous time that we live in my lifetime, probably
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comparable to the early 60s with the cuban missile crisis. so, mr. secretary, where are you taking a risk because of this budget cap? i should say, where are we taking risk because this budget cap. >> thank you, chairman. first of all, our budget continues to be strategy driven. over the last several years, we have worked hard to make sure that we link the budget requests to the strategy and that has been, in my view the best approach to constructing the budget. but to me to the caps approved by congress, we have to make some tough but responsible choices. we prioritized near-term readiness, as you heard me say earlier, chairman. we decided not to invest in some modernization that would not deliver results before 2030
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and we invested in our people and our families. the kinds of decisions that we had to make were tough decisions that we had to make, things like fifth and sixth generation aircraft, but having said that, our budget does include, as you heard me say earlier, $143.2 billion for rdt any -- and hundred -- because we respect -- expected some risk we will need to have a growth and a top line in the years to make sure that we can recapture some of the things that we were not able to get
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into. >> so let me follow up on that. you talked about, you're going to focus on the projects that can give you results before 2030. so that means basically, with this budget, what we are doing is we are putting off expenditures into future budget cycles because these projects after 2030 are projects that will have to be taken care of fiscally, correct? >> that's correct, chairman, and our plan is to, going forward, invest in those things, but we weren't able to do it in this budget. we've prioritized near-term readiness in taking care of our people and i believe that is the right approach. >> you believe that in future budgets, if we are able to invest in those projects that we would be able to catch up and remain on schedule? >> i do, chairman, provided, if we are provided the resources and the growth in the top line
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in the out years that we will ask for. >> general brown, you talked about where we are today. is there operational impacts from this budget today over the next year and what impact does this have, say, five years down the line? >> for operational impact, because in our focus on radius, i don't see operational impacts. now is the secretary highlighted, we had to diverse our modernization. we think a decade from now, there's potential challenges that if we don't get the additional support and topline. >> excuse me, what kind of challenges are we talking about when you say additional challenges. >> well, part of it was the modernization. the thing i focused on was ensuring we have both the capability and capacity. we have to make sure that we have the capability, it stays ahead of the threat and we also
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have to be able to operate in many of the areas around the world like we do today and that is where we need to make sure we are working closely together on the out years to ensure that we can actually continue to modernize and make sure we stay ahead of the fray. >> senator collins. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. secretary, let me follow up on the chairman's question by asking you a very basic question and that is if you had your preference, would you be operating under a 1% increase? in other words, do you think that congress should revisit the 1% cap that is imposed by the fiscal responsibility act? >> currently, the cat makes it more challenging and forces us to make choices that, if we
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didn't have that cap, we obviously would have to make. so yes, it does provide more challenges but certainly, we have worked hard to link our request to arch strategy and as much of our strategy as we can support, we are going to support. >> thank you. i want to switch to a different issue on october 25th, 2023, that was the darkest day in maine history in my lifetime. 18 mainers lost their lives, 13 others were injured, in the worst mass shooting that we have seen. the killer, robert card, was a sergeant first class in the u.s. army reserve.
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the governor of maine established an independent commission that has issued an interim report, and that report included several very troubling findings about missed opportunities to -- prevent this tragedy. for instance, mental health providers recommended that, quote, measures be taken to safely remove all firearms and weapons from his home. the army reserve reserve action -- access to military weapons. this recommendation was never communicated by the army to relevant law enforcement agencies in maine. we had members of mr. cards unit raising alarms with their supervisors about their fear
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that he was extremely dangerous. he actually assaulted a fellow soldier. he was institutionalized for two weeks at a hospital for those -- we have an inspector general's report that was underway to look at this more thoroughly. after i receive that report, i intend to draft legislation that would require our military services to report to the appropriate authorities when someone, when a service member poses a threat to him or herself or to others while protecting the second amendment rights of our service members. would you commit to working with me on such legislation to
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establish formal policies and procedures so that we can ensure that our military services share this kind of relevant information with law enforcement and with state officials under the appropriate state laws? >> thank you, center. first of all, this was a tragedy, and my thoughts and prayers go out to all of those affected by this tragedy. the health and welfare of our troops is very important to me. at the top of mind, all the time. so is the health and welfare of them my community members. so absolutely. we will work with you to ensure that we have the mechanisms to, where appropriate, pass relevant information to authorities and as i look forward to my staff engaging your staff on this issue going forward. >> thank you very much.
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>> senator -- >> thank you, mr. chairman. welcome, mr. secretary, general brown, and mr. mccord . secretary austin, while i am glad that we were able to pass the national security supplemental, i think all of us were relieved that that happened, what we have seen is that russia's industrial base has been able to increase production in part due to sanctions, in part because they're getting assistance from the pubic peoples republic of china and we know that -- those are the same drones that they are using in the middle east to kill american servicemembers and attack us so, can you talk
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a little bit about how the administration is seeking to limit industrial base cooperation between russia and china and what, in this budget, will help us do that? >> we certainly have raised this issue in the right channels, senator, and you are right. prior to, at one point, russia had experienced significant losses because of the work that ukraine and its forces was doing. they had inflicted significant casualties on the russian forces, destroyed a significant amount of its equipment, and so to your point, we saw the russia engaged north korea. provided quite a bit of munitions and missiles. the drones provided by iran really
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kind of help begin to turn the tide there for russia a bit and allow them to kindly get back up on their feet. in addition to them increasing their production in their industrial base but without the help from iran, north korea and china, to your point, this probably would not have occurred to the degree that it has occurred. so we have engaged in the right channels to emphasize our serious concerns about the prc and others providing this sort of support. as you know, there are sanctions that we continue to look at in a number of areas and now, we revisit those sections to ensure that we are being as effective as we can, and that continues to be a work in progress. so this is the whole of government effort and again, i
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think we are engaging in the right channels but there's a lot more work that continues to need to be done. >> well, thank you, clearly, we still have work to do. secretary austin, the last time i saw you we talked about the 60 minutes -- and you committed to taking a look again at the genesis of those incidents but one of the other aspects of that or the personnel who have been affected by those anomalous health incidents and the fiscal year -- in 2024 provided funding specific for payments to victims and there is funding in 2025 to provide payments, as well. but the rulemaking that is
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required to get those payments out the door has not yet happened. will you commit to this committee that the department will work on that and provide the required payments to victims? >> absolutely, chair. >> and you know when dod plans to -- on this issue? >> i will have to get back to you on that, i don't have a forecast. >> if you could get back to the committee, i would appreciate that. i know that we have a number of people who are waiting for help who have been affected. general brown, this budget invest in important conventional capabilities, but one of the areas where we still have challenges is in the area of disinformation and misinformation. so can you talk about how the budget invest in our capabilities for cyber and the information domain to counter what we are seeing from virtually all of our adversaries?
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>> eunuch others areas that we are investing in any information domain, in particular, there is about $14.5 billion in our cyber capabilities for both offense of and defense of cyber. there's about $1.8 million to better understand how how are understandings -- our adversaries would use this intelligence against us. it's really about how we bring together our data and user data and having to get under ways to analyze, particularly the misinformation and ensuring that we stay in the cyber realm to get the facts out early and part of this is not investment in technology, but investment in the training of our force to move at the pace that
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information moves today. that's something we will continue to work on, as well. >> thank you. my time is up. but i hope we are working with the global engagement center at the department of state because clearly, this is an area where we have an equal amount of work to do. thank you. >> senator moran. >> thank you. even as the administration's goal to reach a cease-fire agreement, does this not send the wrong message to our ally, israel, and embolden iran and iranian backed groups? we should not be signaling to iran's enemies that our support is conditional. many of us in this room worked hard to get aid included and passed by the house and senate in the emergency supplemental. my questions on this topic or three. should we be concerned that the aid that was included in that recent supplemental is in jeopardy of being withheld from israel. did the secretary of
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state consult with you on this decision? do you agree that halting u.s. assistance to israel emboldens its enemies? >> thank you, saturday. first of all, our commitment to israel's security is ironclad, as you have seen from the very beginning. we have flowed billions of dollars of security assistance and a very rapid pace into israel, and as you just mentioned, with your help, and we are grateful for this, we just passed the largest ever supplemental appropriation, and most recently, on april 13th and 14th, you saw us lead a --
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>> it it clearly provides the capability, is a great platform, gray capability, the training is always the first --
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first rate because of the commitment of our trainers and, again, there are a lot of countries who want this capability and having the ability to train is absolutely important and it contributes to the overall readiness of the combined force. you can, you know, interoperability means having the right procedures, but it also means being able to work together with our comrades in other countries. and so this face-to-face work that was conducted in places like this, i think it's critical. >> thank you, mr. secretary. general brown, you and i recently visited arkansas where we toured a munitions production facility and saw the argent need for a base to
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increase capacity and replenish our stockpiles. the passage of the $95 billion supplemental bill proves that when we provide assistance to our allies and partners, we strengthen our defense and industrial base, as well. this fiscal year, congress also -- for six missile programs for the first time. general brown, what impact will multiyear procurement authority have on the defense industrial base, and specifically, munitions production? >> well, when i think about multiyear procurement, what it does is provide an opportunity for consistency. and that consistency, being able to provide consistent demands so they can actually get a workforce, have a supply chain and know what to forecast for over several years.
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i think that's going to help us in the long run because that consistency will help build trust, it will ensure that we get the capability to deliver on time. if we have inconsistency, it's going to decrease that, increase the cost, but also increase how long it's going to take things to get into the hands of the war fighter. so that will invest into our industrial base, it's hugely important, not only from our allies and partners, but for our force, as well. >> and i appreciate you getting out with that. i know you are traveling a lot, visiting these places and, again, i think it's really important. secretary austin, i appreciate your continued focus on taking care of people. the budget calls for 4 1/2 pay increase for service members and annual increases to housing and allowances. the quadrennial review of military compensation
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is due to be completed by january, 2025. in the meantime, there have also been multiple recommendations to enhance pay flexibility for service members, including pay for certain career fields and junior enlisted service members . secretary austin, in your opinion, where would pay flexibility be most flexible -- effective if implemented? >> first well, let me thank you for the support that you have given us today, and as you pointed out, we are asking for 4.5% pay raise in this budget request, senator, but to take you back a bit, in '23, we ask you for a 4.6% pay raise, you supported us on that. in fiscal year '24 budget, we asked you for a 5.2% pay raise, and that is the largest pay raise in 20 years. so when you add those together,
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i think that is a pretty meaningful compensation. anything that we do in terms of these types of actions, it does reduce the strain on troops and families. any recommendation will have to do analysis in terms of how it affects, you know, the budget now and into the future, and so had you proposed a different thing, we certainly look to work with you and provide you that analysis. >> thank you, sir. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator.
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>> thank you, chair, vice chair, secretary, thanks for being here. i want to tell you about the redhill closure and remediation. once the division was taken to shut down -- and was ahead of schedule and then there is the whole enterprise is the new concept of operation as it relates to fuel on the pacific. i'm going to set that aside for the moment because the thing that the community is working on and thinking about the most is long-term health impact and long-term environmental impacts and what of the appropriated money that we provided to the department, i believe it's community response, but i will and has granular admin year as you can. what you are planning to do
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with the remainder as it relates to making sure that none of that petroleum eventually makes its way back into any of those aquifers and that anyone who has been harmed by ingesting petroleum product gets taken care of by the , onc feeling was complete, we stood down the task force and stood up a task force that the navy is now in charge of and is charged with environmental remediation. i've had personal conversations with the leader of the task force and secretary of the navy on how important this is. they are committed to ensuring they do the right things, to make sure that we get this
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right going forward. we owe it to the members of the community to ensure that we do, in fact, do this. in terms of specific amounts of funds are allocated to each segment of this, i will have to come back to you on that.>> that is fine. we just got briefed on it yesterday, and it still big pots of money. 95 million there, 62 going to the task force. we don't know what these numbers mean. the community is asking what is happening with the money. it has to be obligated by the end of this fiscal year. time is short. it doesn't have to be you, but any member of your team. >> with your permission i would like to thank you and the delegation for your continued support. without that we probably would not have the adequate resources
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to do the things that need to be done going forward.>> thank you. general brown, you know the amount of aid that this midi can provide is finite, given that the indo-pacific is the priority theater. i will say this less diplomatic you in my prepared question. what keeps you up at night and what are the unfunded priorities that you think we need to take a hard look at in the indo-pacific? >> the things i stay focused on, i will tell you i'm very confident of our joint force. there's not much the keeps me up at night. i'm focused on to make sure we have the capacity to execute what the nation asks. it's a modernization of things that we highlighted earlier that we had to differ because of the fiscal responsibility. i want to make sure we have that capacity modernized.
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we also spoke about munitions. also want have a strong industrial defense base. so i want to have an unfair fight where we have the advantage. >> this is a little bit outside of our committee, but the other thing i would flag is it's never the most exciting thing for a member of the senate to fund, but it is essential. and in the state of hawaii a lot of the dod assets are sitting on really old and that's funding electrical but we are not capable if we don't have those things operating well or elevated it's not the kind of
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thing you do ribbon-cutting for. if you are good politician >> all of those things cost money. >> thank you for being here and for your great service to our country. secretary austin, i'm concerned about the credibility of the military determine deterrence policy. when i see president biden saying don't. and we have attacked people not adhering to it i feel we are simply running our deterrence by setting these ambiguous boundaries and letting our adversaries walk over us sometimes. what steps are you and the president taking to establish a stronger more credible deterrent against these threats from our adversaries besides, just don't.
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>> i take it you're speaking -- specifically? we had a number of goals at the very beginning of this crisis and one of them was to protect our people both our troops and civilians in the region. another was to recover the hostages and another was to ensure that we are doing everything we can to support israel in its effort to defend itself, and, finally, it's our goal to ensure that we contain this conflict in gaza and not have a regional conflict breakout. what you saw early on you saw us deploy some substantial capabilities to discourage people who are trying to do that from trying to blow this
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into a regional conflict and i think even though there've been desktops throughout the region, we don't see a regional conflict at this point, senator. so if you look at the attacks that were being conducted against our troops, you recall in january we saw -- leading up to january we saw number of attacks against our troops and our bases and used on february we conducted a pretty major strike that the president authorized in iraq and syria. since that time we've seen two incidents, and we attribute those actions to probably rogue elements. so in that case, they have been deterred from attacking our troops. in terms of iran and its actions in the region, iran continues to present a threat to the region, and that is
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something we will have to remain focused on for sure.>> let me ask both of you a question about the reports of withholding weapons. many of us, to reinvigorate not just our own defense but to give aid to several other entities. what is the status of withholding weaponry that we voted to send to israel. are we doing that? and why are we doing that? >> again, our commitment to israel is ironclad, and as i said earlier, since october 7th weaves have had billions of dollars of security assistance and, as you just mentioned, you just passed the largest
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supplemental in history focused on israel. and we will continue to do what's necessary to support israel. >> are those reports false that i'm reading? >> no. we are reviewing some shipments in the context of the unfolding events in roff at >> it's predicated on the strategy that israel is going into rafah . is at the bottom line? >> we are assessing. we've not made any final decisions on this yet, but to answer your question yes, there are some things we are taking a closer look at. >> that is an answer -- thank you for clarifying. i wouldn't say i agree, but thank you.
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let me ask you. this is one of the things that's come up, the re- fortification of our own munitions. how you see it now that we've passed this and the president has signed a?>> it will put us on a much better path. it's not just the supplemental but the fy24 national defense authorization act. i would not look to actually expand it in the future on a multi-year procurement, because it will provide lowest -- workforce facilities, supply chains, and allow us to make sure we have a capacity. >> your convinced ron a path to renew our munitions to a satisfactory level? >> we are on a good path. one thing i can also add is getting it on time is important
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so it gives our base the confidence and the trust that they can invest. >> i think we all here you. >> thank you, chairman and vice chair collins and thanks to the leadership of this committee for navigating some very challenging dynamics and getting ultimately delivered to the war fighters and all the different departments and agencies supported through the supplemental and critically needed additional funding. i look forward to working with you. i've got two questions i would like to focus on. as you heard chair murray, we need to coordinate between defense and development to be as effective as possible, particularly in places on the margin of the main conflicts appropriately occupying most of your time. i chair the subcommittee that funds the state department and
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five years ago president trump's signed into law the global fragility act. is a simple proposition. it requires coordination between dod, usaid and in fragile countries that are not yet scenes of active combat, but where we might implement the same sort of strategy we pursued in columbia over a long period of time to prevent a fragile state from becoming a failed state. one of my concerns is the lack of dod engagement in global fragility implementation. i understand you have a lot on your plate. but there are several identified nations and areas of focus under gfa. one happens to now be the subject of renewed intense engagement, coastal west africa. i have visited the relevant
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airbase that is being occupied by russian and american troops as we are likely being forced to leave niger, and our partners with who frees trained with have been asking for years for additional security assistance. mr. secretary, i'd be interested in your input on what dod plans for taking advantage of this existing structure for how we can coordinate planning between the diplomats and development professionals and security professionals of our government and allied partners in an area that is newly of some focus because of the fear real effects of wagner threatening these nations.
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how we plan to use this tool? >> first of all, we are fully committed to supporting the global fragility act. that area that you mentioned is of increased importance. you mentioned we were forced to leave niger. we will leave, but as you know, what we do, what we typically do is we try to help countries develop their own capability through their spaces. but you have to have a reliable partner. in this case, you know -- >> we could spend a lot of time on how it happened and why. i don't mean to be rude but i
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have very little time. we have an unreliable partner in niger. i regret the significant investment we made will not likely be to our benefit. i was wondering how you see prioritizing and partnering in developing security plans for coastal west africa. >> what i was going to say next is you are right. it is an important area, and we are working to address those places that you mentioned and potentially develop the capability to have a presence there and partner in more significant ways with some of those countries. that work is ongoing. >> i look forward to consulting with both of you because i think there's an urgency to it from a security perspective. >> i would agree. 's but this is what keeps me up
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at night are the foreign terrorist organizations. if i might ask one last quick question. >> quick. >> i recently visited jordan and iraq and i'm very concerned about the threat to our forces posed by the low technology drones that iran is providing to russia. i see there's a specific counter fund in this year's budget. briefly speak to the importance of having flexible funding and our ability to develop and deploy and quickly state-of-the- art defenses to this. thank you. >> senator baldwin.>> the army continues to budget for tactical wheeled vehicles at rates well below the minimum sustaining rates industry requires to keep production lines open.
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and further, the army is risking a gap in productions by transitioning to a company that has no experience manufacturing this platform. i'm worried that the army's management of these programs and the industrial base -- and the army is due to complete a strategy for the acquisition of these platforms this summer. but i'm concerned about the army's ability to grade its own work. it's an important part of the overall industrial base in our national security strategy. so, mr. secretary, can i count on sound decision-making from dod on vehicle programs, and will you engage the office of the assistant secretary of defense for industrial-based policy in reviewing the army's management of the tactical wheeled vehicles and provide
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recommendations? >> i will. and there's no question that wisconsin's industrial base is critical. we want to make sure we continue to do the right thing and make sure we have the capacity to address our needs going forward.>> wisconsin's industrial base is something that is always on my mind. so i will shift to ship building. we are all troubled by the 75 date ship building review that found major delays among the shipbuilding programs. and i was surprised to hear that the navy estimates that the frigate will be delayed by as many as 36 months. is united discussed last year, i worked to secure funding for the workforce development programs that would support
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growing the skilled workforce that we need to sustain robust production of the frigate. i'm disappointed that it took 15 months to obligate the fiscal year 2023 funds. mr. secretary, can you explain to the committee the importance of continuing to fully fund the frigate program and its associated workforce development needs on a consistent annual basis? and we commit to work with me to ensure that the navy works diligently and responsibly to execute these funds? >> as you know, this budget request includes a request for fully funding the fy25 frigate. two point, making sure we have the workforce that can provide the capacity that we need to stay on track and keep up with the demand, that is critical.
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the industrial base needs to not only recruit but retain the talent needed to do that. and we have to continue to invest in that and pick up the pace. we will continue to work with industry leaders to do that. i have met with some leaders and talked about what we are doing with the resources being provided to invest in the industrial base. and we will continue to do that working full going forward. they are doing things on their own to invest, but we will have to work together in a more meaningful way to increase capacity.>> thank you. >> senator graham.>> the battle force ship assessment requirement report issued said we need 381 man ships, 134 unmanned for total fleet size
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of 515 by 2043. general brown, is that right? >> i'm not familiar with the complete study, but i do know we need additional -- >> okay. i'm assuming -- we are on track to have 294 ships by 2030 under the budget proposal. is that right? >> 29 and -- 293 and there must be a lot of shipbuilding between 30 and 43. i'm not blaming anybody. i think this committee ought to look at account and come up with a sustainable plan to get the navy in shape to deter war
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with china and other places. i think we have to look at modernization and have a discussion to give you the ships and the things that you need to win the wars we hope we never have to fight. let's go to ukraine. jenna lawson you said that we will send a signal of weakness. >> i agree with that. >> there are people on our side it doesn't matter. with all due respect in my view
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we are delaying transfer or stopping transfer of certain weapons like 2000 palms bombs 2000 palm 2000 pound bombs. their media reports that have happened. are they incorrect? >> that we made a decision? >> yes. >> we make no decision. >> are you worried if you make a decision to deny weapons that israel say they need, that it would send a signal to hamas and iran to keep pushing? >> we want to make sure we are providing the right kinds of weaponry. >> okay. would you've supported dropping the atomic bombs on hiroshima or nagasaki to end world war ii? >> senator cotton based on the situation -- >> it happened.
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i'm not asking you. they did it. do think it was disproportionate? >> was deftly -- >> in hindsight do think it was the right decision for america to drop atomic bombs?>> it stopped the war. >> do you agree, general austin? would you have said to drop them? >> i agree with the chairman. >> if we go back in time and say we got two atomic bombs, should we drop them? what would you say?>> you know, i think the leadership was interested in curtailing -->> what is israel interested in? do you believe iran wants to kill all the juice if they could? the iranian regime? do you believe hamas is serious when they say we will keep doing it over and over again? do you agree that they will if they can?>> i do. >> do you believe that
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hezbollah is a terrorist organization also bent on the destruction of the jewish state?>> it is. >> israel has been hit by iran, hezbollah and hamas, dedicated to their destruction. and you are telling me you can and tell them how to fight the war and what they can and cannot use when everyone around them wants to kill all the jews? the existential fight for the jewish state it won't send the wrong signal? do you still think it was a good idea, general austin, to get out of afghanistan? >> i support the presidents -- >> i think you do. i think it was a disastrous decision. if we stop weapons necessary to destroy the enemies of the state of israel at a time of great peril, we will pay a price . it is obscene. it's absurd.
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give israel what they need to fight the war they cannot afford to lose. this is hiroshima and nagasaki on steroids. >> senator murphy. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. it's pretty stunning to me how this country and our allies failed to learn recent history lessons, those recent history lessons in afghanistan and iraq tell us that there are substantial great limitations to the ability of military force to eliminate a terrorist threat. in fact, history tells us that the application of overwhelming military force can, in fact, grow terrorist threats and not shrink them. mr. secretary, you said that israel has the right to defend itself and the u.s. supports it. i agree.
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but if israel's strategy is making it more likely, not less likely, that future terrorist attacks will occur, then it is not an effective strategy. it's all well and good to get angry about a conversation the u.s. is having with israel over the right strategy but we have lots of experience. the national intelligence estimate released earlier this year said this. the gaza crisis has galvanized violence by a range of actors around the world and while it's too early to tell, it's likely that the gaza conflict will have a generational impact on terrorism. a generational impact with al qaeda and directed supporters to conduct attacks against
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israeli and u.s. interests. here's my question. how do we apply the lessons we learned in iraq and afghanistan as a means of helping israel understand how to defeat hamas, and what is your assessment of whether this campaign is, in the long run, can it decrease the ability of hamas and other organizations to recruit and retain strength and the ability to hurt his real in the u.s.? >> thank you, senator. we said that hamas does not equal the palestinian people. they are not one in the same. what we learned, to your point, a key lesson is you have to protect the people, the civilians, otherwise, you create more terrorists going forward. so it's not only a moral
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imperative, but it's also a strategic imperative that you protect civilians. and you can do both. and we know how to do that. in terms of the lessons learned and things that we endeavor to pass along are the things that we continue to have a dialogue on. but there've been far too many civilian casualties in the space , and i think we should do everything possible to ensure that we protect civilians and provide for their welfare. >> i think you are right that there is a strategic and more reason to care about the civilian casualties in gaza, even if you don't care about the moral consequences of 13,000 children dead, you should care about the strategic consequences of providing
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recruiting material. let me do a hard turn on a subject important to u.s. national security but also to my state. this budget downgrades are commitment to building virginia class submarines. we made a mistake in the 1990s when we hollowed out the submarine industrial base. we went from having 12,000 employees down to about 1500 and it took us a decade or more to scale up when we realized we needed these submarines. how can we look at the request for only one virginia class submarine in fy25 it's an enormous step back. i'm worried about our ability to deliver what we know we can't, which is two in the class submarines and keep the columbia class on time. i were you cannot do that.
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even if it's a one-year, a big step back in commitment to the virginia program.>> to increase the backlog by putting more demand on the system, or invest more in the industrial base. and that's the approach we've taken. we asked for 1.9 billion to invest in the industrial base. for this budget we are asking for $4 billion. supplemental gives us 3.3 billion and australians are also investing in our submarine industrial base. as i talk with industry leaders, we've talked about how we go about recruiting more people and increasing strength in the supply chain. that work is ongoing and needs to be done. but we have to increase the capacity. i know there are arguments both ways in terms of the demand versus investing in a capacity.
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but they believe, and i believe that we will get there, but we need to do more in terms of capacity. >> i appreciate that investment, but has to be an immediate pathway to get us back on track to build those two virginia classes. thank you. >> mr. secretary, do you believe that israel has to fully defeat hamas so they don't come back and have another attack like october 7th? >> i do believe that they have to be defeated, yes. the goal of the israeli leadership as stated by them is to destroy hamas. >> if they need to be fully defeated, then won't giving them precision weapons to -- help
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them fully defeat hamas with less collateral damage and less impact on civilians? those precision weapons will help them fully defeat hamas with less impact on civilian population in gaza. why would be not get them those weapons as fast as we can.>> i tend to agree with you. we recently provided small diameter bombs. >> but clearly, it was the intent of congress to give israel that assistance and we are watching closely that you get that to them as expeditiously as possible so they can fully defeat hamas so they don't regenerate and do the same attack that they did on october 7th. wouldn't you agree with that? >> i would agree with that. i also agree with the point we need to do everything we can to
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protect civilians in the battlespace and the precision you talked about is really important. some types of munitions are better six others. but we would like to see that begin to happen in terms of fewer casualties -- >> do you agree or not that we need to get them the assistance to fully defeat hamas? >> we've been doing that. >> do with that or not? >> i do.>> mr. chairman, i want to talk to about sentinel. given the incredible threat from china and the buildup we see with the arsenal are you fully committed to modernization of our nuclear forces to the sentinel program, and how are you going to do and what will
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you do to keep that on track? >> as you know our nuclear portfolio is key to our strategic deterrence. so in this budget there's $49 billion that is focused on that portfolio and 3.7 billion. as the airports as the air force works that we want to modernize because this leg is will provide that strategic deterrent in addition to the other two legs. >> are you committed to do what you need to do keep it on track?>> i am. >> do you feel that you have a plan in place to do that?>> i've not gotten a brief from them but i know the air force is focused on this. a semi past experience how important it is for the nation.>> is there something
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you would want to see from this committee that would help you do that? >> the collaboration with the committee and consistent on- time funding will be helpful to move forward and the constant dialogue will we can take out slack to ensure they get the capability.>> our chairman is from montana. and we have an air force base in north dakota. and i know that we are committed to helping you. if there's something else that needs to be done, we need to know where it is. >> last question i would have, is how are you making sure -- with this development for space- based assets, i know it's important and we are committed to funding it and advancing it. i'm concerned that you are not doing enough to maintain an isr capacity.
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what are you doing to make sure you have the isr assets that not just air force but all armed forces are asking for? >> as a joint warfighter, and having served jointly, i've been focused not just on the air force but all the services. it's a capability of how we bring an isr from our maritime assets and particularly from space assets and how we transition. i would highlight the fact that cyber plays a key role in having the capability to bring that together and using digital tools to take all the information we get from whatever platform, that is where the focus is. how do you take that information to things to determine intent, and it's not just -- i know -- it's a combination of platforms and capability and how we bring it
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together that will make us most effective.>> we worked on this for some time. you had a good common sense approach to it. we want to continue to work with you, but what you do affects every single force in the dod. not just the air force. so i want to encourage her continued focus on making sure you have adequate isr and we will work with you to do that. >> it actually makes my job easier. i'm focused on ensuring we have the capability. >> thank you. i have a few more questions. and i thank you for your patience and going through the order. i've repeatedly called upon secretary mayorkas and president biden and congress to step up and fix what's going on at the southern border. it is not sustainable at all and unacceptable. dhs continues to rely on dod support at the southern border to make sure they do what they
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can do. but again, i don't see funding in this budget for personnel for those operations. so how many troops are serving currently on the southern border? >> there's about 2500. >> how does dod cover these costs? >> as we always have out of our operating budget. >> what does that mean, operationally who gets shorted? >> it means that there's something else we are not doing because of that support. it's important that we do everything we can to support dhs in their effort in its work on the southwest border. we've been doing it for 19 of the last 23 years. the price tag has been about $4 billion.
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but, again, we are supporting an agency and dhs is the lead agency. it's important to our country -- >> let me ask you this, mr. secretary. do you agree with my perspective that the administration needs to do more to secure the border we should not have to depend upon military to do that?>> we should or should not? >> should not. >> i agree, but if we are required to assist, we will continue to do so. and the president agrees with the fact that there's more that should be done and that's why when you came up with this bipartisan approach, it was supported. >> no doubt about it. congress dropped the ball on that because that would've changed things dramatically. we should be working for the betterment of the country and not democrats and republicans.
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i'm frustrated. secretary kendall has recused himself for reasons that members of congress have created that problem. northrop grumman does doing what they can. beck tell is doing what they can. and you've educated me well on what's going on and why this is a dangerous time. but i don't get the sense of urgency we have time lines and we had a general in front of the va milcon committee. and it got -- could not give me
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the year they anticipated starting this program. and i get it. their cost issues and it will cost a lot. general brown, can you give me -- this is in your old job. but can you give me any idea if i should be concerned about the time line continuing to slip on the sentinel project that i think is critically important moving forward for the 21st century?>> i don't necessarily have the details, but we -- i get concerned we don't get the capability in the hands of our war fighters are things important to our strategic deterrence. my focus, and same is when i was the air force chief is to ensure we do everything we can to make sure we bring that capability forward. i want to make sure we can do
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that. i do have concerns. i want to understand what we need to do to ensure we bring that capability forward as quickly as possible. >> we are here to help. but unless we start getting time lines and goals and everything set up, this could be pressure putting on people. is quite frankly i don't think it's acceptable to be continuing to say, don't worry about this, it's coming. the truth is, we've been at this for a while and i have not seen it coming. i see progressing to the point it needs to. spot we are all jumping in between multiple appropriations subcommittees. but thank you for being here
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and thank you for your leadership. i know there's a great deal of discussion here this morning as there is generally about the threats from china, iran, the conflicts in ukraine, but i feel it's important to always that we never take our eye off of north korea, which last month fired missiles in the direction of japan, one of our strongest allies in the pacific. it was the prime minister who noted shortly after the most recent launch from north korea that they threaten the peace and safety of not only japan but the region and international security. i make this statement to let you know that something we are engaged in tracking and i know you are as well. i want to ask you, mr.
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secretary, not about north korea but it focused on the arctic. the fy25 budget overview states that the goal of this year's budget request is to develop a monitor and response approach in the arctic. i read that to suggest that it's a passive approach in the arctic, which i think would be a strategic critical error. we are already behind and underequipped when it comes to assets when you look at what russia has with the icebreaker fleet of about 50 vessels in the u.s. we have barely two. mr. secretary, you've been to the state and had strong statements noting that the u.s. has to project power in both regions while also serving as a front-line in the homeland
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defense mission. you're saying the right things, but concerned about the wording . and i would ask for you to expand on what a monitor and respond approach in the arctic entails. >> thank you, senator. united states, this is a strategically important region to us for a number of reasons. we will continue to take actions to prioritize the region. you can assume cs release a new arctic strategy and that will account for the changes in the environment, the warming climate , the fact that we have new members of nato that will be helpful in working with us going forward.
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we see each of the military services making investments in their ability to operate in that environment. we also see combat commander partnering with canada to modernize norad, so, again, it is important to us. you know that we conduct some significant exercises like northern edge of there. and every time we do that we would learn more about ourselves and the challenges facing us. but the arctic will remain important to us and we will account for that in the new strategy.>> thank you for that. i would suggest also will be factored into the strategy when we look at the budget, making sure it is resourced to
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demonstrate that whether it's in the proper arctic equipment, cold weather service and senate programs and the like. quickly to you, general brown. as you well know, alaska is in a unique position because it executes a north common mission . and it creates some operational control issues as north common 11th air force commanders are unable to effectively utilize their assets in a timely and efficient manner. every 11th air force commander has expressed concerns about the structure and that is not prioritize homeland defense. i'm sure you are tracking this issue. i know the proposals being considered within the pentagon.
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i don't know if you have any updates you can provide or at a later point in time. but it's something we look to address. i had a conversation yesterday. >> i'm very familiar with the operational challenges associated with the forces in alaska that are focused on north common norad missions. i'm not aware of the direct proposal, but based on experience, i note something we have to look at to make sure we don't create unnecessary seems to make sure we can respond in the way that the nation requires. >> i appreciate your review of that. >> mr. secretary, congress is overwhelmingly and with bipartisan support indicated its support for providing
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weapons and other assistance to israel. these funding bills have passed with 70 to 80 votes in the senate. and similar bipartisan margins in the house. you said in response to a question today that no final decision has been made. i would suggest to you that pausing or delaying the delivery of weapons to israel is a decision and it's a decision that most members of congress would take issue with. i was reading a report of john spencer. , and he said, quote, israel
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has noted to prevent civilian casualties in urban warfare than any other military in the history of war. so what conditions is the administration asking israel to fulfill the forward thing these weapons that the administration has deliberately delayed, despite strong congressional support for this assistance? >> thank you, senator. it's about having the right kinds of weapons for the task at hand. a small diameter bomb, which is a precision weapon and useful. but maybe not so much a 2000 pound bomb that can create
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collateral damage. so we've been clear that we have to do more to protect the civilians and we want to make sure we site plan to move those civilians out of the battlespace before executing any kind of a combat situation. we would like to see them do more precise operations. i don't doubt they have good policies, and they do, but it's important to make sure we follow them, so we've had conversations about this and so we think it's imperative that we do more to protect civilians and that's the real issue. >> i would suggest to you that it is hamas that has its
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military operations under hospitals and schools, concealed in civilian areas and it is using our hostages, american hostages, israeli hostages and innocent palestinian civilians as human shields. i think we need to remind ourselves that it was hamas that massacred 1200 israelis. it was not the israelis that started this conflict. and i'm very concerned that we not try to micromanage israel's right to defend itself against a terrorist group backed by iran. let me go to one other issue,
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and that is i've known that the national security strategy focuses on great power competition with china, but most imminent threat to the u.s. homeland and our citizens abroad as well as our allies may well be the reconstituted terrorist factions that have grown since our abandonment of afghanistan. and to follow up on the chairman's point, according to one dhs official cited in a washington post report, more than 10,000 migrants from central asian countries have entered into the u.s. in the past year. some of them have crossed the border illegally. so is the department of defense also keeping its eye on the
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terrorist threat, which i believe is, as the fbi director has said blinking red and working with our intelligence community? >> absolutely, senator, we are. i meet routinely with the director of the cia and the director of national intelligence and discuss our assets and resources that we have that are focused on collecting on these groups and i would remind you that we were the country that warned both iran and russia of a pending attack. we could not do that we didn't have the disability that we have. it's not perfect and we will work to do everything we can to make sure we have every sensor available to help us.
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>> thank you. >> the general recently awarded the contract for the airport operations center to replace the doomsday -- which you highlight the importance of this aircraft or the destruction of ground command and control centers >> so it's very important that not only puts control for the leadership of the nation before the nuclear command as well. it plays a key role to continue to operate when we have any type of crisis or contingency. >> what is the reason there needs to be replacement of the current aircraft? >> based on age. one thing we have to pay
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attention to, that all the platforms we have within the department is to ensure we have a viable platform that we can sustain from a maintenance standpoint because at some point he gets more costly to maintain than to move into a new capability. and as technology advances, we want to make sure we have the most advanced capabilities that the nation best offer platforms that we use not only for command control but for warfighter's.>> thank you. secretary austin, the posture committee report recommended executing the modernization program of record. including the replacement of all delivery systems. can you highlight some of the key successes related to modernization of strategic delivery systems? >> i will say, again, we are
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asking you in this budget for $49 billion to invest in all three legs of the triad. we've requested to this point hundred 49 billion and that money is being put to use to upgrade capabilities across the board. as we look at the threat of going forward, the threat that we face today is not the threat we were facing 10 years ago. and it will not be the same 10 years from now. this is kind of a changing challenge, and we have to keep pace with that. we anticipate going forward there will be more changes that will have to be made as our adversaries get more capability. >> thank you both.
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>> i want to thank you for being here, gentlemen, we appreciate the testimony of given today and the answers to the questions the senators may submit additional questions. we ask you to respond to them in a reasonable amount of time. a special thank you, even though you didn't say anything, mike mccord, you are a component of making all this work and i want to recognize your good work. thank you very much. >> thank you, chairman. i appreciate the opportunity to engage with the subcommittee throughout the year.>> absolutely. but we will reconvene on wednesday, may 15th, and as of right now we stand in recess.
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