this is about 45 minutes. finish if. ♪ ♪ >> thank you all so much for joining us today, and thank you, senator sinema. we have a lot to talk about. >> we do. >> we're going to try to get through as much as possible. we, obviously, are at the mccain institute's sedona forum named for the late senator john mccain. his last act in the public arena, a historic thumbs down on the gop's repeal bill. it crossed party lines, and it cemented his reputation as a maverick. here we are just a few, ten years -- seven years later.

you've notably said that you are leaving the senate because americans don't want the collaborative approach that you've said you model after him by crossing party lines. why do you think that that approach has been devalued in such a short amount of time? >> well, you know this, i've been kind of talking about this for, you know, 20 years now in -- and it's a real privilege to serve arizona from my time in the state the house and the state senate with my former colleagues right here, hater serving in the u.s. house and the u.s. senate, some of my colleagues are here, and literally for the last 20 years i've been telling anyone who would listen why it is so important to ignore partisan boundaries and just seek solutions, common sense solutions that serve the interests of the people that we serve in arizona and across the country. but it has become increasingly clear, i this i -- i think everyone would surely agree that

style has become more out of favor. now, i don't know that it was in favor at any time in the last 20 years specifically, but it's become more out of favor. it's become less acceptable to work in a a way that is not concerned about the next election or who's going to win one over the other guy, but more concerned about actually solving a problem that the american people face. i think there are a lot of reasons for it. certainly, the influence of money and media in to politics has a lot to do with it. but ultimately, i think the responsibility lies with all of us as a americans. it is our choice who we vote for, it's our choice who we nominate, it's our choice who we support in electoral politics. and when we have gotten to a place where it's unusual if not heretical to support someone

with whom you don't agree 100 percent, you're in a tough spot. because what that means is those who want to or survive in the system, the who want to continue to be elected and continue serving, have to agree with the base 100%. if you've heard me say this before, notably -- [inaudible] just six years ago. i've always said if you ever meet someone with who you agree 100% either they're a liar, or you're not thinking for yourself x. both of those are very, very dangerous for american democracy. and and so i guess my challenge, my opening challenge -- i'm not sure if it's a challenge for those in the room, but perhaps our friends and our neighbors and our colleagues who may not share the same commitment that you all in this room share to diversity of ideas and compromise, the challenge i would offer is to support people with whom you only agree with about 60% of the time.

that means he or she is thinking for themselves, and they're doing something a little bit outside of what the party machine is telling them to do. they're looking for real solutions and willing to compromise. not on values, but on specific tactics or strategies or even items in order to get that solution. that's become unpopular. >> right. >> and i'd hike to make it popular again. >> so what -- you talk about it's a party system. mccain, again, memorably challenged his party on things like immigration reform, on things like torture. he was ridiculed here at home and, more broadly, nationally. he was censured here by the state republican party -- >> who hasn't been cent sured? [laughter] come on. >> for those in the audience. but he never left the gop. in fact, at times as a result of this as he saw the fringes of his party become more extreme,

he engaged and -- potentials to serve in key positions in the party. by contrast, the democratic party. you didn't really engage with the party at the grassroots level like he did. some people wanted you to stay in the democratic party as perhaps a moderating force. the try to handle some of the extremism, as you call it, that we see from the left. why didn't you do it? >> well, it's my assessment that both of the mainstream political parties in to our country today have become less tolerant to differences of opinion within their own tents, right in the idea of a tent is not very big anymore. it's pretty small and exclusive. and, unfortunately, the small and more exclusive that tent becomes, the less likely it is that folks with independent thought or willingness to compromise fit.

and so, for me, declaring my independence from both parties was the right move. some of the folks who are in this room wove known me for a long time know that before i was a member of the democratic party, i was an independent. and i thought as i ran for office time and time and time again in arizona, regardless of what the label at the end of my name was, i always campaigned and governed as an independent. i was taught at a very young age to think for myself. and and that seriousness, of independent thought, of using your own brain to ask questions and be thoughtful and be slow to come to a conclusion but firm in your beliefs when you do. that could fit in a single party, but it doesn't fit very well today. and so it became clear that the party that i was affiliated with wasn't really interested in having my voice as part of the tent. which is fine. and so, you know, i --

[inaudible] actually, i exited stage center finish. [laughter] but for me, it was actually a really important moment because it was an opportunity for if -- for me to remind not just myself, but my state, my constituents and the country who i have always been, which is an independent voice for what i believe in. >> at what point did you become pretty fatalistic about the democrat party? we know that you didn't ever really feel like a member and that that didn't define you, that label didn't define you. but at what point were you just, like, i can't do this anymore? >> i don't know that fatalist ic is the right word because i do have hope for both the democratic and republican party. and for those who are in the audience today who remain members of those parties, i would strongly encourage them to try and do some rehab. if you want to, it's not my

party's fabulous and you can believe whatever you want fatalistic's not the right word. but i will say it's been a growing concern of mine over the years, and it became particularly strong as i served in the united states senate. as focuses here are, no doubt, familiar there was a time in the united states senate where my votes and my voice became very pivotal. certainly because of the numbers, right, within the body, but i would argue more is because i chose to use the position to advance the things i believed in. you know, when you serve in a 50-50 senate and to a lesser extent a 51-49 senate, every single vote counts. and i would say to my colleagues during the time of the 50-50 when, as you'll recall, i was negotiating bipartisan after bipartisan after bipartisan

package from the bipartisan infrastructure law with my friend mitt romney right there to the marriage and religious act which i also negotiated with mitt to the bipartisan safer communities act which mitt was -- [inaudible] [laughter] mitt was a part of every single one of these efforts. i mean, the list goes on and on. and there were people would come to me and say, why? why are you doing this? well, first, i can. this is the time, we can e get so much done. and the second thing i would say is we are all one of the 50. each of us. it's just i was willing, i was willing to the take the arrows for being the one 40 said i am not going to go along with the herd, i want to do this because it was the right thing for my state, for my country, and i'm going to do it even if some folks aren't happy with it. >> we're going to. >> get to some of those states, and we're going to get to the great senator from utah here in a minute. >> he should come up here. no? [laughter] >> let's talk a little bit about

your personal experience, your path in politics, because it does in so many way ways as i was preparing for this interview, it very much reflects sort of this parallel of modern politics, right? you enter the bomb with-throwing as a, like, liberal back bencher in the arizona legislature, and you realize this is not working -- >> [inaudible] >> i'm going to adapt, i'm going to grow, i'm going to emerge as a deal maker at the statehouse. you are negotiating with some of the toughest republican, far-right cast of characters at the time. you are catapultedded into the u.s. house do -- >> did not feel like a catapult. it felt like a very, very difficult rock climb. >> you won and became a member of congress -- [laughter] and then you became a member of the senate in a very historic election, the first woman to do so, first democrat in 30 years

which was a big deal for a state like arizona. you obviously are leaving the senate with a virtually unparallel ared record as a bipartisan negotiator who helped shape some of the most consequential pieces of legislation during your tenure with the help of the gentleman in the audience. you are at the pinnacle of american power with the experience and the will to govern, and now voters here at home don't want that. that must be super hard to reconcile for someone like you. >> i mean, it's disappointing, yeah. >> how are you working through that? >> well, i mean, the good news is i go through -- [inaudible] very quickly. so we are -- in our country right now. and everyone in the room who's a parent knows when your child has a fever, it's very scary. there are millions of things you need to do to help your child. mostly it's to try and alleviate the pain rain if help them feel

like it's going to be okay and wait for the fever to break. and that's, i think, where we are. we've got to wait for this fever to break. you know, there are things that we can do to help alleviate the pain and get through this faster, but that takes a collective effort of americans who, again, going back to my comments at the beginning, we as americans have to be willing to support and choose that which isn't 100% in line with every one of our emotional beliefs. we've got to learn to tolerate difference and, in fact, to celebrate difference. so i look forward to that time -- [laughter] when that happens again in american politics. we are not in that time right now. we are in a time where the voters have said pretty clearly and you see that not just in arizona, but at the national level and in state after state, voters are are mostly interested in choosing the person who says

that they agree with the loudest. and there isn't much of a connection between the -- and the results. in fact, my experience was with, of course, in the list of all these bipartisan achievements while there were some people who were very excited to see the real difference of those laws made in the lives of arizonans, i heard a lot of people that were just unhappy that it wasn't enough of what they wanted. and, you know, we live in an eninstant the media world, but we don't live in an instant work product world. it still takes teem and effort to do -- time and effort to do work, and it also requires negotiation and compromise. >> so you're -- as much as a cultural phenomenon as political, that's what it is, right? >> [inaudible] >> how do you break that fever? how do you to that?

and how long will it take? is it a generational thing? i go talk to voters all the time. i come back from far-flung, you know, parts of this state and others, and it's very much seeming like it will be the nexm now. >> yeah. >> it's not going to be anytime soon. >> i don't know. you know, i can't read the future. i have been talking about it for 20 years, so maybe i've just been seeing it coming. but, like, what you hear from voters is also what i am hearing, and that is that by and large what many americans want is to have someone tell them exactly what it is that they want them to hear. and more and more folks are interested in a strategy of by any means necessary or this kind of concept that the ends do justify the means. we've had that debate over and over in the senate, most recently, of course, with the filibuster debate. i just fundamentally, i don't

with accept it. i fundamentally do not accept that the ends justify the means. i do not accept that because i believe that when you do accept that, that you're accepting a way of interacting with each other as human that degrades and erodes our individuality, our respect for each other and our desired for shared outcomes for the common good. so i reject it. when will the rest of the country choose it? i have no idea, no idea. but i do think -- [inaudible] of time. >> there are many people in this room who -- across america who bemoan the state of their parties and very much believe that the parties need to burn down can be before it can be fixed, before this fever breaks. do you share that school of thought? did it just have to reach rock

bottom? >> i don't know that it has to, but as a student of history, i would note that things often do go through periods of darkness before we get to period of light. that is true of american and world history. so i'm not sure i can answer that fully, because i just don't know. and i don't lie, so i'm not going to pretend to know. >> when you announced that you were not running, that you would be resigning rather than running for re-election, you said i that american voters no longer wanted their politicians to compromise or -- [inaudible] take us back to that moment when you first realized that or a series of moments that it seemed very much like watching you from afar, the a slow moving sort of realization that this is where

it likely would end up. >> i don't know that that the i can give you a moment or even a series of moments. but what i can say is that in the 20 years that i have been incredibly honored and privileged to serve arizona, it has gotten harder each year. it got harder and and harder to find folks who were willing to compromise, who were willing to put a aside -- aside the thing, right? the thing. whatever the thing was. it has become more difficult for folks to find folks who were willing to put aside this one thing in order to get to the larger e goal. it is somewhat possible, i mean, mitt and others who i serve with in the nat will tell you that even -- in the senate are tell you that even still today i continue to go to work with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle the try and convince them to just at least cooperate on a

very small list of items so we can do the very basics of government. but i will tell you that even that has become more difficult, much, much more difficult. >> what's the response? what do your colleagues say? >> they have this thing that they want. and some of them just said to me, i will never have an opportunity to talk about this thing that i want if i don't do it here. so part of what i have done is to try and brainstorm ways to help address their needs without, you know, burning down the senate. and so i spend a lot of my time trying to help meet my colleagues' concerns and needs, all of which are valid, i want to be clear. whether i agree we with them or not, people aren't showing up and asking to do something that's insane. they're showing up and asking for something that they belief in, and it just -- believe in, and it just is so happens that a lot of other people in the if senate believe the opposite. and as you know in the senate, it takes 100 senators to come to

consensus to move forward on pretty much anything. so what i spend a lot of my time doing is seeking to help attract that one person's need and figuring out how can i address that need in a way that doesn't cause us to, you know, default or shut down or not pass an important piece of legislation to support ukraine, etc. i spend a lot of my time and energy doing that. and what i have found is that individually when someone feels like they're being heard and respected and helped, they're much more willing to be cooperative, and that's why i've been able to make that progress. but it's getting harder. >> so let's talk about one of those really hard moments, a recent moment. you helped put together the border security bill that contained elements that republicans had largely been advocating for over the past 20 years. but because of presidential election politics, republicans decided that it would be better to walk away from addressing

security problems rather than to fix them. how did that change your opinion of your colleagues? >> i don't think it changed anything. first of all, i'm incredibly proud of that package. it represented the most comprehensive, strict thest, most forceful and effective border security measures that we've seen in our can country in over a generation. it was a really good package. there wasn't a part that i didn't love. but again, compromise. i was very proud of the package. we worked very, very hard on it for five months, and i worked very closely with a number of my colleagues in both parties to ensure that we were listening to concerns, that we were incorporating what they needed. i spent an inordinate amount of time telling chuck schumer and the white house that, once again, they needed to do this next thing. i did that for five months in a

row, and i'm really proud of the package that we presented. but i also knew within six hours of it becoming public that it was going to be dead. >> how did you know? >> well, you could hear it. you could hear it before i went to bed sunday night. i could hear it. >> how did you go to bed sunday night -- [inaudible] did you sleep? [laughter] what did that feel like? >> oh, yeah, i slept. yeah, i slept. [laughter] finish disappointing. i would saudis appointing on two fronts -- say disappointing on two fronts. one, first and foremost, disappointing for my state. arizona has been eating the bankrupt of the failure to address our border crisis for the last 40 years. and, you know, i was born and raised in tucson. if i know what this is like. i know how this has devastated our border communities. i also know what it's like through my interaction with migrants for folks who are being

told that they're coming to a promised land, they're going to get a path to citizenship, and there is no path at all for individuals. none. they live in the shadows until which time they are deported or for the rest of their lives. so this is not fair to the minor. it's a humanitarian and security crisis. so, first and foremost, i was very, very upset for my state. and then secondly, i was disappointed in the politics. >> did you feel after all of this hard work, all the back and forth, the months of negotiation, did you feel on any level betrayed by your colleagues? >> no, i don't think that's e a helpful word. >> what word would you use other than disappointed? >> that's the word. [laughter] the reason i wouldn't say betrayal is because betrayal would imply there was some sort of contract or understanding, and there wasn't. there was just -- look, i think

a majority of senators, more than 60 senators, wanted to vote yes on the a package. just not more than they wanted to survive. of. >> yeah. and what did it e tell you about that moment for democracy, that it was better for them politically that walk away from this than it was to fix it? >> well, i mean, this is not a new story, right? john was in multiple gangs of eight trying to fix immigration. and and his gangs were comprehensive, so they actually had citizenship issues too. the ours was pretty much just border. a little bit of visa, but mostly just border. is if so the story of an unwillingness to do the big, hard thing in front of you because of the short-term political repercussions is the story. it's not a border story, it's also the story our country's facing when it comes to solving the crisis of dealing with

shortfalls in social security and medicare. it is also the crisis we are dealing with with a debt that will soon become overwhelming. i mean, this is -- it's not a unique story, it's just the loud one right now. but those other stories are just as a dangerous for our country. >> it seems as though with by the time this border package if falls apart, all signs were pretty much pointing towards you not mounting a re-election campaign, but it et al.s sort of seemed like maybe -- it also seemed like this could sort of springboard you9 into the race. how did this play into your decision to run or not or did it? >> no. >> it felt ooh like a final sort of indignity. that's what it looked like. >> i don't know what -- >> quibble with the word? >> yeah. that's not my word. [laughter] i'm very precise, as you know. i just, you know, i'm serving in

the world's greatest deliberative body, and it has been an incredible privilege. and there are days, many of them now, you go to work and think the they're not particularly interested in solving problems. and those in this room who have known me for many years know that what i love most is to solve problems. i love getting a tough problem where you -- [inaudible] together, helping them understand and care about each other's perspective and helping them reach a solution. i'm not personal hi attached much to what the solution is. what i'm interested in is getting to that solution, to making it better for the community you serve. and i loved serving in the senate during the time when i was able to do that over and over and over again. and i am not interested in not doing that with my time. >> are you going to tell us what

you're going to do next? >> as soon as i know -- [laughter] and to be clear, i have no idea. but i'm excited about a future where i will work to solve problems for people who want solutions. finish i'm really looking forward to that. >> it's become quite common if today for elected officials of either major party to privately express concerns about the extremism, as they put it, in their own parties. a scary few are opening -- openly willing to attack it head on. >> i understand why. >> right. a lot of them talk about it in private. and senatorny, in his book -- romney in his book dished quite a bit about some of the things his colleagues say privately but will not say publicly. what are your colleagues telling you without naming names? >> well, he and i have the same colleagues, so -- [laughter] >> maybe willing to share

conversations, your conversations. what do you hear? and what are you telling them? >> well, this'll come as no surprise to anyone in the room, i say what i think. not everyone loves it. so when some of my colleagues have come to me and said, oh, we're so sad you're leaving, we're going to miss you with, how will we ever get anything done, i'd say, you know, it would have been awesome if you had said any of those things over the haas five years. [laughter] -- last five years. look, there is a tendency to let someone else take the arrows, and i have always been fine taking them. finish because i believe that you should stand on the courage of your convictions, and you should be open and honest and direct about who you are and what you believe. and if there are those who don't like it, then let the chips fall where where they may. the one person in my life who was the best example for that was john mccain. he said what he thought and let

the chips fall where they may. sometimes those chips fell all all around his feet, and he just kept going. but not everyone is comfortable with that. so i do believe that everyone, all of us as humans, are always doing the best we can every day. . and so that is what i remind myself if i begin to feel frustrated or disappointed. >> so what do your colleagues tell you? [laughter] >> some people are glad that i've been willing to take arrows. >> what else? >> i don't want really want to tell you anything else. [laughter] [inaudible] sorry. >> it's a shame. [laughter] many of the biggest pieces of legislation you helped a pass, including the infrastructure law, were also pushed by the

biden administration. president biden has recently said that he wants lawmakers to work together to compromise -- are talking about and embodied by senator mccain. do you think the president is practicing the same sort of politics that he preaches? >> the white house has kind of two sides, right? and i don't mean this in a negative way, just an observance. i think that, you know, the folks who get things done understand that bipartisanship is the best way to get things done, and they are happy to support it when such an opportunity is available. but there is also a part that is very interested in the next election. >> do you think the president has brought america together and helped sort of lower the temperature post-trump or has he, on the other hand, in some ways sort of fallennen into some of the same partisan patterns that sometimes -- >> i think the partisan --

[inaudible] >> want to elaborate? >> well, i mean, biden and trump say partisan things. that's what they do. >> do you think the american electorate recognizes that? as a it per tapes to the biden administration -- pertains? >> i think the american electorate's -- [inaudible] if. >> people increasingly say they are -- [inaudible] obviously, but at the same time efforts to create a different path have fallen flat. is it even possible do you think the make a difference outside of the two-party system in the short term? >> well, i did try that experiment. >> hence the question. >> i would offer, no. [laughter] it didn't work well. maybe someone more talented than me -- >> or outside of arizona? >> i don't know. >> [inaudible] [inaudible conversations] >> i can tell you that i tried

an experiment, and it wasn't as successful as i had hoped it would have been. >> what happens in arizona typically is replicated elsewhere outside the state. right now we are at the center of some of the most divisive issues of our era. we have the border issue, we have election denialism that has reached a fever if peak and is likely only going to get worse. we have the fight over abortion access. we have the fight over long-term natural resources leak water. everywhere you -- like water. everywhere you look in this state there seems to be chaos and crisis. arizona is in so many ways the french hero of american democracy. why do you think that is, and what is the way out for this state? >> well, i think one of the reasons why arizona often is seen as kind of a bellwether, right, canary in the coal mine so to speak is that arizona has

a very long history of independence, right? people think what they think in arizona, and unlike in other states we don't really feel the need to lie about it, we just say it. i appreciate that. it's kind of a little bit of a shock, actually, everyone just says what they think to your face. here people say exactly what they think, and i really appreciate that. i know exactly what i'm dealing with. what's unfortunate, i think, is the polarization that we see in both parties, you know? it wasn't this, it wasn't this polarized a decade ago. when i was serving in the state legislature, actuallying my friend and former colleague, kirk adams, is here. he was -- [inaudible] and i was, i don't know, i had some tighten the until of leadership finish. >> minority leader. >> i wasn't the minority leader, i was the shadow minority

probably. [laughter] someone else had the title, but, yeah, i did the work with. [laughter] so kirk and i were often on other sides of an issue mom malley, right? -- nominally. but the friendship and relationship that we had, the ability we had to work together, the agreements we would make about how to move forward were wonderful. i mean, wonderful: we would stand together at the back of the floor session and actually have conversations about, you know, what are we going to do next, etc. can and -- it wasn't that we were bargaining, it's that we were having adult, rational conversations about how to solve specific problems and move forward. and let me say i have that relationship for which i am very grateful with both mitch mcconnell and the two men who are running to replace him, john thune and john cornyn. they were wonderful, delightful men to work with.

but the conferences respect quite the same anymore. and so there's this, like -- [inaudible] sometimes it feels like that has complicated things. and i think thed add vent of media and money, as i mentionedded earlier, have influenced that. becausing you know, folks want to be a tiktok star and raise money on the internet because they gave a speech or something like. that and that has gotten worse. and i think that that has helped push arizonans and americans farther to these partisan corners. again, i know it's a -- [inaudible] conversation but but to come back, this is a cultural issue. you can't legislate your way out of this. this is about us as americans choosing to think critically and treat our fellow man differently, maybe with respect and curiosity rather than with

skepticism and hatred. but that tax time. takes time. >> i have a few questions left. we'll make them quick. we're running out of time, so there probably, should be a book at some to point. >> [inaudible] [laughter] >> if we continue on this trajectory, where are we in the next 10, 20 years. >> oh, i don't like that question at all. i do think that our political rancor gets worse in the short term. there's not anything successfully working to stop the it or break it up, right? some of us have tried. half of laugh -- [laughter] again, i'm not sure the ec experiments have gone exactly to plan, but there's not a recipe this appears to be working right now -- that appears to be working right now, so i do think things will get more difficult. one thing that i'm actually concerned about, i don't see anyone really talking about it or thinking about it much. i know that you're probably

thinking about it since you do the democracy beat, but i'm concerned about what happens in november after the election. if regardless of which candidate wins. i believe this -- there will be a swell of movement by either extreme to seek to invalidate or degrade or denigrate the outcome of the election. i think we should prepare for that. i'm concerned about that. >> okay. so you have said that you do not intend on engaging politically in the 2024 election -- >> i don't think that would be helpful for any candidate. be, like, no thanks. >> but you spell out the potential danger. >> yes. but i have been doing that for 20 year. >> that is true. but why not get involved? why not -- maybe not candidate-specific, but on a different level. >> i said this in my if announcement once i decided to

retire. the american public is not interested in what i'm selling right now. >> final question for you. if you could offer your successor no matter who that may be a piece of advice, piece of wisdom, what would it be? >> just one? >> you could -- please. >> i have a menu. don't promise things you can't deliver. candidates up and down down the ballot from the very highest to the very lowest continue to promise things they can't deliver. that leads young people in particular to feel do disaffected, december appointed and disillusioned and that exacerbates the current in our country. so don't promise that which you know is not true. [inaudible conversations] [laughter] another piece of advice that i would offer -- [laughter] this makes me so happy.

i love this man. another piece of advice that i would offer is to become true friends with every single member of the united states senate. make true, meaningful, personal relationships not based on politics or ideology, but personal if relationships. because when you have a personal if relationship with someone, they will do what you can ask so 10 or 100 or 1,000 times more even if they don't agree with you politically. that's the secret of successes that i can't even list out. there's so many of them that have come solely because of my personal friendships with other senators. and then the third piece of advice i'd give is be quite different than what you're campaigning as, because candidates who campaign as righteous war yours -- warriors at the edges of the political spectrum will not be productive in getting outcomes for the state of arizona.

period. because as a i said to you earlier, excuse my language, the shet works. -- shit works. working together, compromising, it works. and our state the has been the recipient of more benefit from the if senators who -- not just me, but those who served before me because all of us are willing to work with across the aisle and get things done. our state deserves to have that. we deserve to keep it. >> senator, thank you so much. >> thanks. >> don't go yet, don't go yet. stay there. [applause] so i got to know your senator by virtue of the last few years we've spent together, and there are a few things i want to underscore. i think you've probably heard them and perhaps if got a sense of them here. one is that you've heard very clearly that senator sinema is highly effective in getting legislation passed that affects

our lives. mitch mcconnell said she is the most effective senator in the united states senate. that's mitch mcconnell on the other side of the aisle who said she is most effective. we've worked together on a number of bipartisan bills. she was the power behind them, she was the lead. there was a republican that paired with her, but she was the one that drove can it. it's extraordinary. that's number one. i'm going to miss her a lot in that regard. number two, she by virtue of intelligence, personality, energy and a willingness to dig in, she's been able to get people to work together even on things that are not related to those big pieces of legislation. and before i left last week, i was sitting between -- next to my colleagues in the back row of the senate, and it was senator bill cassidy on one side and thom tillis on the other -- >> wonderful, both wonderful. >> and we were talking about how is this place going to work without kyrsten sinema.

and you might think, well, that's kind of -- no, no. she is, when there are impasses, and there are often impasses, she goes back and fort. and i -- back and forth. i have to tell you, there's some people in my own party that i find distasteful. [laughter] >> i love that. >> she loves them. >> i love that. >> she loves them -- >> they are great. >> she loves them, and she's able to get them to do things i would never be able to get them to do because they can tell i don't like them. [laughter] and she does. >> i love them. >> and so she's highly effective. i'll mention one more thing. i mean, so we will miss her and the country will miss her a lot. we wonder, we really do wonder, how is it going to work? a third thing is this, which is why did she become so toxic to the base of the democrat party. all right? what was it? what was the point when that really came home? and that was on the so-called

filibuster rule, okay? and, by the way, the term filibuster is a terrible misnomer. no one filibusters anymore. it's the 60-vote rule meaning to pass the senate requires republicans and democrats to agree. you have to compromise to get something into law. kirsten zip ma felt that was -- kyrsten sinema felt that was important. interestingly, all but maybe one or two of her colleagues several years ago -- >> 3 3 of them. >> if 33 democrat senators several years ago when republicans had the white house, the senate and the house of representatives, all three, the democrats realized we could -- if we got rid of the 60-vote rule, we republicans couldn't do anything. and donald trump was saying i want to do all these things, i want to do -- i'm going to get rid of all the unions in the public sphere and so forth, and these 30 democrats -- 3?

>> 3 3. >> these 333 democrats -- 33 democrats signed a letter to mitch mcconnell saying do not get rudd of -- rid of that rule. it is absolutely essential to the preservation of democracy to make sure that we compromise. and guess what? if when the time came when the democrats had the house, the senate and the white house, every single person who'd signed it on the democratic side decided to vote to get rid are of the 660-vote rule -- 60-vote rule. and who was it who took the plame for -- blame for saying no? what's extraordinary to me is there was not a human cry by the democratic party to say, wait a second, this person has a integrity. and the other 33, where the heck are they? but with instead they went after her. it speaks volumes about the divisiveness in our country. now, i don't know what the answer is to it, the divisiveness that occurs. i've got some thoughts.

i'd like the hear yours which is what can -- people talk about senatorring a new party. t not going to work. there are all these group requests. there's forward and there's no labels and there are all these different things. they don't seem to work. is there -- do you have any prospects, any thoughts about what we do to chart, again, a middle course? >> you know, i -- first of all, thank you -- >> by the way, i wanted -- can we give her a round of applause? this woman is amazing. [applause] >> thank you, mitt. just so you know, i think that was the most important vote i ever took in my entire 20 years, the filibuster vote, i do believe, was the most important vote i took, and i don't regret it at all. if i had to do it over again, i'd do exactly the same thing. i don't know that there concern i mean, i think this, again, goes back to the beginning, like the early question. finish we're in a cultural

fever. i think it is incumbent on us as americans to temper our own -- [laughter] i talk about this a lot, there's the id, the ego and the superego. and the id is, like, the little, short kind of selfish part of you that does exactly what you want in the moment. it's the person who eats three pieces of cake even though you're going to get sick. the ego is worried about what other people think. they're worried with about looking greedy in front of others. the superego is the self that is willing to sacrifice for the greater good and do that which matters for the common good. the superego is the steward, the steward of our country, right? we're in an id place right now, right? everything is short term what feels good emotionally right now. that's why elected officials and

those running for office are -- [inaudible] and telling us things that are just not possible. .. >> for my neighbor, like how will this be perceived and a world? we got to shift back to this place of thinking more than just the short term personal victory, and think about the impact of our desires, our behaviors, our actions, not just ourselves but on our communities. how does our behavior impact others?

are we thinking about tomorrow or the next day, , or ten years from now? and if we as as a culture can to do that, that's how we can tolerate difference of opinion, embrace it and get someone else an opinion, different than your own. crazy i know that they actually might have a better idea than yours and that you could learn and change or grow from it. like that's part of a human experience, right? this is what we all teach our children, i hope. but in our politics were not doing that. i think it's incumbent on us as americans to do that. >> thank you so much. [applause] >> that was great