her uncle's unhappy. i'm sensing an underlying issue. it's t-mobile. it started when we tried to get him under a new plan. but they they unexpectedly unraveled their “price lock” guarantee. which has made him, a bit... unruly. you called yourself the “un-carrier”. you sing about “price lock” on those commercials. “the price lock, the price lock...” so, if you could change the price, change the name! it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. these are difficult stories. we're so grateful to you for letting us into your homes to talk about them. we're really grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi nicolle. thanks so much. we're beginning with donald

trump's criminal trial. the judge late today denying another attempt by trump's lawyers to just run away from this thing. indeed, the judge admonishing trump's lawyers for insinuating that actor stormy daniels changed her story while rejkting the mistrial request. the judge said, i disagree with your narrative that there's any new account here. daniels wrapped up her testimony. she spoke under oath for hours and rhetorically stood her ground during the reports we have -- we don't have the cameras but we have a lot of reporting from people inside the room -- that it got very tense with the questioning from trump's defense lawyers, trying to make a bet the jury wouldn't be as offended by the line of questions as they would be concerned about the potential questions raised around her credibility. >> you wanted money. that phrase repeated multiple times by donald trump's lawyer today, as she grilled stormy daniels during

cross-examination. >> it bordered on, i think, shaming a sex worker. >> of course stormy daniels getting the most attention. >> you see donald trump. it is his motivation to really shame this woman, and it's not working. >> it felt like something that might have happened three decades ago. >> she was not going to let her story be mischaracterized. very impressive. >> so, that's this clash today. and because donald trump is, of course, running for president and because the country can take this in, there are many layers to this. but the first and most important legal layer is whether this will work on the jury or backfire. then we can also have, of course, at the same time, the wider discussion about what you heard legal experts there describe as misogyny and out of date and antiquated. is any of this helping donald trump's defense with the jury? is it a wash, or might it even backfire? one of the things here was trying to frame daniels' history

in a very certain way. they asked daniels pointedly, you made all this up. and she said, no. they tried to say it was all about money. and she said, no, i never asked for money from anyone in particular. i asked for money to tell my story. again, that's a distinction between this allegation of extortion. did she just want money for no reason or did she have something that had market value. daniels said to trump's lawyer, you're putting words in my mouth. that's the tone. while you may say all's fair in a courtroom, this is more tense back and forth than we have seen in many other days. the defense did get daniels to concede she did not have a first-hand knowledge in how trump's role evolved in paying the transaction. it was at this distance through the intermediary lawyers. so, trump's lawyers asked daniels, you have no personal knowledge about his involvement in that financial transaction, do you. she's under oath, and she said not directly, no.

prosecution also came back at daniels, and they asked if publicly telling the truth about trump has been a net negative or a net positive for her. that's a straightforward question, and given what she's been through, this is her view p under oath, you could mark it by what she's been through publicly, attacks, personal security, money she now owes pursuant to all this. so, i will tell you, as an observer reporting on all this, i think the answer you see on the screen is credible. she said it has been a net negative. the point being that if the main attack on her is that she had this job history and she did all this to get money or improve her life, well, by her statement under oath and a lot of other indicators, it did not improve her life. many court reporters and legal experts say daniels had a good day today. if the trump defense team basically added doubt to a

couple of jurors, even by a very old or unfair playbook, well that's going to be tested in this trial. we could see her leaving court today. her attorney also spoke to nbc after the testimony saying, it was an excellent job of responding directly, simply, and thoroughly. and the lawyer saying he's proud of how she conducted herself. and now when you look at the broader context and why today was so intense, we have reason to believe she may ultimately be the only woman who has this encounter history with donald trump that the jury will hear from. trump's lawyers said today that the other person in this sort of situation was part of the catch and kill payments, karen mcdougal, former playboy model, who said her story was bought by the inquirer and silenced. she will not be testifying. prosecutors also called a bookkeeper. this is a big deal from the trump org because there's all the financials. there you got that the testimony that trump and his convicted top money man, allen weissal berg, were talking daily.

that corroborates the point that trump was involved the in one of these things. if one of the defenses i told you is busy president, lots going on, wasn't involved, the problem for donald trump is that paperwork and his own aides, his own trump org, financial staff say, actually, even while president he was disinvolved. prosecutors will continue to hone in on this because they want to show this wasn't some after the fact thing, that the plan all along with these checks you see was an illegal, off the books, reimbursement of michael cohen and that trump was in on. trump's former white house assistant was the gate keeper to the oval office will be testifying. she also worked at the rnc, discussing on the stand the release of the "access hollywood" tape rattled leadership, also testimony about internal conversations about, it got so bad that they were looking at replacing trump as a candidate if it came to that. now, that matters. once again, a jury that's looking at a former president

thinks, well, he won. the point here in the campaign crime theory is this is how close he was to not only losing but maybe not even being allowed to finish the race if the rnc pulled him off the ballots. trump's team down played this. they said, there is always some event that causes total consternation for a couple of days. >> she did agree with that and told the prosecution trump met at the white house in 2017. that was an email on that. michael cohen described the meeting as a time they discussed this very secret hush money and the repayment, which we know, according to the books, looks like it was a lie. now, this witness testified that she does still think highly of trump, and like others, we saw her get emotional on the stand according to reporters inside the room. the defense sees that as potentially humanizing her. so, what you see here is what we've told you would happen in the way this case will evolve. you get some exciting testimony, some human moments, whether they're for or against the

defendant. we saw that emotional testimony from someone that the jury might sympathize with. we also saw stormy daniels go clashing very directly with trump's lawyers. and then you have all the paperwork and the receipts, which on the one hand is admittedly boring. it's definitely boring as compared to discussions of intimate details or someone's history in the adult film industry. but the d.a.'s team here is hoping to do something methodical to combine the human and the emotional and memorable with the wrote and the written and the boring so that by the end they can say to the jury, this wasn't about just shaming this defendant and candidate or making him look bad or overdoing it against him. all these things were necessary to show that both crimes, according to the d.a., occurred. the cover-up part, as i've told you is, well, it's been supported in a lot of evidence. there's a lot of evidence that they covered it up. and then the campaign crime is why we keep talking about why he

might have been knocked off the ballot. that is something the jury has to consider. if they buy the trump defense he was going to win anyway or he was always controversial or this wasn't such a big deal, this undercuts the idea that this was a planned, mentally intentional campaign crime. it's not good enough to just say they wanted to cover it up. they need the campaign part too. that witness i told you from the rnc will be back on the stand when court resumes tomorrow. so, this whole thing is barrelling forward. emily baz lon is our special guest tonight. i want to get into all this with you, emily. we're back together in 90 seconds. emily we're back together in 90 seconds. it only works from the other side of the screen, buddy. you still got a land line in your house. order now in the subway app. you know what's brilliant? boring. think about it. boring is the unsung catalyst for bold. what straps bold to a rocket and hurtles it into space? boring does. boring makes vacations happen, early retirements possible,

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it was more like, i thought you wanted to be a -- you know, i thought you wanted to be successful. you have to show me what it takes. i don't need someone to speak for me. and i relish the day that i get to face him and speak my truth. >> stormy daniels speaking her truth today, and unlike some people who haven't testified -- and we'll see if the defendant, donald trump, testifies -- she's under oath, so there's legal pressure around that. we're joined by "new york times" writer, emily -- welcome. >> thank you. >> let's start with the most narrow question, the 12 jurors here. based on what we know when we watch this back and forth now, your thoughts on how they will take this in, the stormy daniels testimony. >> well, one thing i was thinking about was that trump

obviously is denied the sexual encounter. and then that opens the door to stormy daniels coming in and talking about it. trump's lawyer, i gather from the judge's comments today, did not object to some of the details that now trump's defense team is trying to use to call for a mistrial. so, you have that problem from the point of view of the defense. -- attack the credibility of stormy daniels because she's the central witness. and then the way that the defense lawyers went after her was, as you were saying earlier, kind of antiquated. and maybe there are jurors who are old fashioned enough and sexist enough to hold her past against her, but there may be also be jurors who are really troubled by the way that she's being criticized for the kind of career she has, the work she's done. it all is so tied up in gender

politics. it's, kind of, hard to predict how that's going to play out with the jury. >> right. it's incredibly gendered, as you say. and the stigma, or attempt to, kind of, unfairly impugn someone is different from the more, shall we say factual claims that you can raise. in other words, in a case like this, asking someone about their work history and their use of money or whether or not this was about, as i raised the question they did earlier, about getting money and improving her life. those are inbounds questions. i say that legally. the judge is allowing those kinds of questions. they say, oh, did all this make your life better over the last few years. she said, no. the jury is going to look at both the treatment in the courtroom and the powerful sense of going up against someone as powerful as this. the theory is it's made up that hole or not. second is whether the stigma stuff just backfires.

"the new york times" wrote about the trump lawyers writing, derisive of daniels' sex work in her questioning. the public perceptions around adult film and sex work have changed a lot in the last decade. you know, it's the afternoon on the west coast, emily. and we want to keep it as appropriate as we can here in the news. but i think it is fair to say that the article is referring to the fact that, as a general matter, with the internet, pornography is common. social media is common. and the idea that one should be stigmatized -- let's all try to take gender out of it. let's say a person of any gender is involved in that industry, if that automatically diminishes them, that that makes them less trustworthy, unreliable, they don't have a, quote, real job, or what all of these things is not only not true. i'm not sure for an average,

informed jury, that's going to resonate. >> right. it does seem kind of antiquated and also wrong. it's a way of judging people that one would hope we've kind of moved beyond. and it gives daniels a chance to actually seem sympathetic and to, kind of, turn the tables, right? i mean, yes, obviously she accepted money in the form of a hush money payment. and she said, i wanted to get paid for telling my story. this was money actually to silence her. but originally she came forward to "the national inquirer" trying to tell her story. that's different from wanting to get paid for having sex with donald trump, or you can't rely on me at all because i used to be an adult film star, which just seems like we should be past that, judging people in that way. >> right. and to be as linear as possible, in the johnny depp case, both he and amber heard were actors. it doesn't resolve the case to

say, well, sometimes you pretended to be other people and you were paid to do that. so, likewise here, the fact that she has a job that defense the team referred to as at times fictional doesn't tell you much about whether what was under oath telling the truth today. and again, i remind viewers, the jury is going to judge that. they have to decide who they believe. emily, appreciate you joining us. >> thanks so much for having me, ari. >> absolutely. see you again soon, i believe, as we cover the trials. when we come back, we look at the fox news playbook and why it might have been the first draft of some of what the trump lawyers are now saying in court. . but, you also can't leave covered in hair. with bounce pet, you can cuddle and brush that hair off. bounce, it's the sheet.

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and they're all coming? those who are still with us, yes., grandpa! what's this? your wings. light 'em up! gentlemen, it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. you may have heard that journalism is the first draft of history, which is never all that complimentary to us that work on this stuff because history gets it better than we do. there is a twist we want to dig into, whether fox news has

become the first draft of a one-sided trump defense playbook. today in court we heard trump's lawyers try to discredit stormy daniels on cross-examination. as i've mentioned, as a general matter, that's not only fine. it's kind of their job. but whether they went over the line where they antiquated gendered attacks that are both unseemly or may backfire with the jury is a big question today. so, the contradictions that they wanted to get at, the trump lawyers, really drew attention to the idea that that could be somehow supported or buttressed by her history working as an actress, specifically an adult film actress. so, they brought up the number of movies she was. they seemed to inflate the figure. they said daniels had appeared in about 250 movies. she said over 150, 150-ish. the defense also tried to undermine her testimony that trump had made her uncomfortable in their encounter. quote, not the first time in your life someone made a pass at you, the lawyer asked. the implication, combining

perhaps stigma or idea about ms. daniels, her career, her life choices, or her look, is that somehow that is relevant to whether or not she's telling the truth. let's remember, the jury has been asked to listen to her and decide, is she telling the truth, did they have this encounter, were there payments to cover it up? so, a lot of this other stuff can feel very derogatory or just like throwing stuff at the wall. several outlets covering this have looked at the problem. they've said the defense is trying to shame the witness and raises the question, is this the kind of strategy that will work in court, which is the lawyer's job, or is it, sort of, a bubble of getting high on their own supply of their client and his media echo chamber have made them think these are great arguments? >> stephanie clifford, who performs in online videos under the name stormy daniels -- >> how many men have you had transactional sex with? how many in the movies?

>> stormy daniels is now doing comedy, which is a step up from doing porn. >> we are taking the most low and degrading kind of work a woman can do and somehow pretending that it's empowering of women. >> number one, why is it assumed that the porno actress and the ex-playboy bunny are telling the truth? >> again, it is fair game in court to ask whether someone's telling the court and look at the evidence that may support or contradict their claims. it is not a legitimate legal argument to say that you think that they have the kind of job that is full of liars. and, again, if that is a gender thing or a fiction thing, a lot of juries, especially nowadays, might not find it compelling. you say, oh, this guy writes novels. how could you believe him? the defense lawyer said, you have a lot of experience making phony stories about sex.

daniels replying, wow, that's not how i would put it. the sex and the films are very much real, just like what happened to me in that room. there are many aspects to all this. we spoke to a prominent women's rights attorney, nancy erica smith, who discussed the importance and dynamics for daniels testimony. >> the pearl clutching and the mistrial motions and some of the commentators saying, well, you know, she went too far when she said he blocked the door. why are we always silencing women? why can't we put total context, why donald trump would break the law so that the american people never heard this? >> it's a good question from an experienced lawyer. and on this matter tonight, she gets the last word. why would maga lawyers and trump's defense lawyers try to silence this woman? and why don't they have any better evidence, hard evidence, other than attacking her to show maybe there's a different story.

that is the question. we have a lot more in the program tonight, including the chaos that continues to rile the republican party, as their new speaker had to be bailed out by democrats to fend off the right-wing gaetz imitators. tough week for the republicans, and we have a special guest on that coming up. have a special n that coming up when you have chronic kidney disease, there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. not so much here.

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. a major story out of congress this week is house republicans reeling from another attempt to oust their own new

speaker, and they relied on democrats to fend off a right wing challenge. there was an overwhelming vote -- and this is an interesting unusual thing, a bipartisan vote on the speaker. you may recall in the beginning of the session, it's very split on party lines and republicans had to pick their speaker by themselves. things have gotten so out of control democrats decided to protect recently elected speaker mike johnson. he was under fire from maga congresswoman marjorie taylor greene. her move was met with boos. >> i think today has proven the uniparty is alive and well and the democrats now control speaker johnson. >> stunts like this does not unify our conference. >> moscow marjorie has clearly gone off the deep end, maybe the result of the space laser. >> most of us by the time we're 12 years old figure out that tantrums don't work. >> hopefully this is the end of the personality politics and the

frivolous character assassination that has defined the 118th congress. >> you heard mike johnson there and he said, defines the 118th congress. he's talking about himself. let's be clear. it is that process, whatever words you want to put on it, that got him elected. it's that right wing bloc, gaetz and t.g. and everything, said they want everything, the speakership, whether they continue on as speaker and other big things are subject to this party line veto. so, it doesn't work well because of what they put in place. and johnson's position is basically, okay, pull the bridge up now that he got in that way. as for the former speaker, well, he's pointing out that johnson is doing the very thing he was encouraged not to do or threatened and punished for even thinking about doing, which was having, what? bipartisanship to beat back the likes of m.t.g.

>> i couldn't live with myself if i did a deal with the democrats. if you can't sustain being speaker by your own majority, should you sustain it? in my question, no. so, either i'm going to win speaker and be the leader with the majority. otherwise, it's not right to be the speaker. >> it is a sad and frankly hard to believe statement from kevin mccarthy, who did all kinds of things to be speaker. but he thought at the time it would be too controversial to work with the democrats. politico is describing this as a self-inflicted chaos loop. m.t.g. is not saying whether she'll do this again, although you saw many of her republican colleagues are upset with her. and writ large, there's a lot going on in the world. a lot of foreign policy issues, domestic challenges, republicans getting toward a general election where they say they could, with a larger majority and the white house, deliver for the american people. and one of the problems they face is the american people right now can see what it looks like to have republicans in charge of the house. they can't even pick their own

leader, let alone continue to govern, because they're spending all their time relitigating whether they picked the right leader after replacing the last leader from the one they picked in january. "the washington post" senior news anchor libby casey joins us now. libby, what's going on? and is it getting worse for republicans with repetition? >> well, it's so interesting to see what happened this week. marjorie taylor greene told our reporters on the hill just a day before this, ari, that there was a little bit of time. she'd been meeting with speaker johnson. they were having this dialogue. and then boom out of nowhere, yesterday afternoon, you know, she's moving forward. and there's this mad panic scurry of how we're all going to cover it and watch it. to quote the great t.s. elliott, it went out not without a bang, but with a whimper. it was over before it got started. you're right, democrats joined with most republicans to just put a nail in this coffin. so, we put a nail in the coffin for now. it's a real loss for her.

it's embarrassing in many ways. she got booed. but, you know, donald trump is still cheering her on from the sidelines. and even though mike johnson won this moment, you know, some republicans are saying that this does cast a shadow over his leadership. it continues to cast that shadow. it's not like he's -- how can i carry on this metaphor -- it's not like he's put a stake in the heart of this thing and the coffin has been buried again. there were a handful of republicans who sided with her, and he will likely get a challenger come november. we'll see if he can keep his speakership longer than that. marjorie taylor greene, thomas massie, one of her cohorts in this -- help me ari -- the vampire coming back again and again to try to go after speaker johnson. >> sure. >> you know, they were saying -- they're basically saying that he's doomed and he'll be out come november. but the real question will be,

will americans re-elect republicans to lead the house again? because, you know, they may just get sick of this chaos. >> right. not everyone is following everything constantly. but if you occasionally tune in, republicans are not trying to bring bills to the floor to govern. does that hurt them this year? >> yeah. and what are they so mad at johnson for? he passed legislation. he passed ukraine funding, and he allowed it to go forward. it's not like he was a huge champion of it. he just let things finally happen. he allowed the log jam to get pushed through. and he said, you know, i've seen the intelligence. this is a real issue. putin could go a lot farther than ukraine. and this is something that marjorie taylor greene just can't abide by. so, he's being punished for bipartisanship. the way it used to work on the hill, you win some, you lose some. these days, with hard liners,

they just won't allow that. i have to give the counterpart on this. democrats have fights in their party. they have different beliefs. but they're trying to stay unified and work for the bloc for the most part. >> yeah. and we started with t.s. elliott. i suppose to put a simple phrase on it, sometimes you lose some, you lose some. and that's where it's been for the house republicans with a narrow majority. libby, you've always kept an eye on things for us in washington. we appreciate it. thanks for being here. >> thank you, ari. >> appreciate it. let me tell folks, we've got something very interesting, we think, coming up. we've been following the trials and all these other issues. but we're going to dig into political rhetoric and some of the lessons democrats are looking at to fight lies in this maga era. that's next. that's next. higher shipping rates may be

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just buy any footlong in the app and get one free. just scan the qr code and enter promo code flbogo it only works from the other side of the screen, buddy. you still got a land line in your house. order now in the subway app. rhetorical battle has a long history. governor add lee stevenson ran for president three times, powered by his rhetorical debating skills. >> gentlemen, i want to say to you, mr. zoeren, that i don't have your talent for obfuscation, for distortion, for confusing language, and for double talk. and i must confess to you that i'm glad i don't. >> i'm glad i don't. stevenson also popularized a line used to this day, saying,

if his opponents, the republicans would stop telling lies about his side, he'd stop telling the truth about them. shredding allegations while doubling down on his credibility. we will come back to that tonight in this report about a figure who's been at the top so long many say his time is over. and a challenger who will stop at nothing for the throne. that might apply to the president defending his title from a former president. but this is actually a different throne, as the rapper with the most hits, drake, fights the rap artist with the most acclaimed poetry, kendrick lamar. and that's not all. i can tell you in the past six weeks, there are about ten new songs from four new artists. and at the core of it, a battle between drake and kendrick lamar. these songs are topping the charts. they're captivating fans. as a matter of news, joe biden's presidential campaign has just engaged on the kendrick lamar

side, using his new lyrics to go against trump. we are talking about an event that is so big in our culture, it has become part of our politics and public life, driving debates and plenty of news. >> drake and kendrick lamar are trending after taking aim at one another. >> there is a lot to unpack in the drake and kendrick lamar. >> the two legendary rappers going at it all weekend, each making some very wild accusations. >> if drake and kendrick lamar got in a rap battle, who do you think would win? >> got to go kendrick. >> pulitzer prize in music almost always has gone to someone in the world of contemporary classical music. >> i love the drake new project and i just really take that as, you know, love for my little brother. >> there's another battle next week? and i don't want to hear [ muted ] about it. i'm signing you up. >> i've never seen a rap battle give us this much music.

>> like lamar kendrick and drake. >> everyone keeps coming up to me and asking, gayle, where do you stand on this drake-kendrick lamar feud? >> it may have been the best rap battle i've ever witnessed. >> right now we've just lived through the most significant battle in any musical jean rah in decades. this is deeper than rap, to paraphrase rick ross. it's about culture, truth, capitalism, civil rights, and what values we honor and reward. now, in the two polls poles of hip hop, kendrick lamar represents the raw and truthful voice. remember i mentioned governor add lee stevenson's line, lamar echos him in this line.

>> know you a master manipulator and ha pitch lar liar too, but don't tell no lie about me and i won't tell no truth about you. >> lamar taking shots from a higher ground and he lit this whole battle after a long running cold war between these two. then both artists did about 11 songs at all including eight in the last 17 days, a flurry of music. lamar argues in these songs that drake is a, quote, scam artist, with the hopes of being accepted and proclaiming himself the true artist, like a modern rafael, who heals and gives you art. but he says the industry's cooked as he pick it is carcass apart. lamar's allegories treat this pop star drake as a soulless zombie atop a dead industry. and lamar casts himself as a reluctant but lethal artistic

revolutionary. he indicts drake for continuing the playbook of exploiting black culture, copying and stealing art without secret or value, without equity. and this is an issue from current artists that drake works with to the others that he may idolize, take the late tupac shakur. lamar invokes tupac, partly for their shared vision. pac condemned the same -- before his untimely death at age 25. >> all society is doing is leeching off the ghetto. they use the ghetto for their pain, their sorrow, culture, their music, their happiness, their movies. >> leeching. tupac shakur was then diagnosing a problem in american capitalism and how it controls culture, what he called there, the ghetto, quote, unquote or black culture to movies and music to

withering and punishing artists, while they live and after they die. this is a long running issue. we've covered it on this program before. it relates of course to civil rights, to capitalism, and to politics. as prt current debate, hip hop experts report that lamar was right to tackle this particular use in exploitation of culture and language. >> the streets in this hip hop means something. the streets and the community, where this stuff comes from, the language you're using, the slang you're using, i don't know, the affiliations to individuals who live a lifestyle that is nefarious, those affiliations, they mean something to your credibility. >> this means something to your credibility, darden explains. so, what may look to some like just a battle between two big entertainers, maybe you've heard a little bit about this and thought it's just an entertainment story. what may look like that is

something much deeper for many, many people. now, it's a battle. drake has been arguing that lamar is actually the poser in his own right, saying he acts like an activist and plays with those themes lirically but doesn't actually take action for his community, that it's all make believe. drake also says that while he works hard, lamar doesn't even make that much music anymore. and drake dismisses this kind of hang wringing over hits as kendrick trying to have it both ways. the idea is top artists want to go number one, so drake argues his competitors only do so by either making songs with him so they do benefit from it, he would argue, or picking fights and talking about him, the boy, in a lopsided 20 on 1 matchup. ♪ we already know it's a 20 v 1 we already know why you went number one ♪ ♪ it's clearly because of the boy ♪ ♪ the honorable thing is to give me the loop ♪ >> now, drake's responses make

some points here with artistry. but over the course of this battle, he found himself defending a type of status quo and then backing off this big, long-awaited battle, after he'd taunted lamar about everything from how often he drops music to whether he would get involved in this battle, which he really did. now, what we're discussing here is a small slice of these issues. both men also accused each other of serious crimes, with no evidence, the kind of claims that responsible journalists don't even repeat. the songs deinvolving into ak money and unverifiable accusations, with everything from attacks to appropriation to body image to misogyny and trauma and more. many have noted the extremes as well here. and this is where culture may reflect and extend some of the broader problems we face today. from our politics to how we live and learn and engage online.

we have this kind of cynical, anti-truth mode that has become very normalized. i bet you're familiar with it if you follow news and politics. this is where, in campaigns and sometimes in cultural conversations, people will seriously say, well, if the conspiracy theory sticks, it doesn't matter if it's true. it worked. and i want to be clear, as we take a look at this important battle, that these kind of lyrical contests were once waged more in the spirit of argument, lir schism, some sense of truth. we should ask if they're now grade on just the most effective lies or conspiracy theories. because if that happens, then art can devolve into the other claiming everything is justified for your team and effective lies win, so why not use them too, and the other side is doing it anyway, yada yada yada. that's not only corrosive, it also makes us vulnerable to a

bigger problem where culture is less able to do what it has done including specifically civil rights and black culture in american life for a long time, which is push us and redeem even our political divides. today, some of this may only reflect them. and again, that may be a product of our digitized era. i'm not saying who in one single story is responsible, but noting some of these wider conflicts. so that's a big picture. now, this is still a battle. and there is the question of who won. most hip-hop heads say kendrick lamar, that's clear online from fans to rap media. as for the hits, well, this new kendrick lamar catalog, the new dissongs i have been talking about against drake, they're doing higher numbers with more likes than drake, and they're breaking records, again, coming out of the unpredictable, organic, spontaneous exchange of poetry between these two

lyricists. lamar himself cautions against using only that kind of metric. in the new songs he criticizes faking for likes and digital hugs. that's on one of those new dis tracks and he contrasts that with authentic credibility. indeed, in these songs, after lodging objections to bad taste and bad ideas and appropriation and exploitation, kendrick lamar underscores his argument, which i told you is supported by many in america right now, that he actually represents a movement. he says, notice, i said we. it's not just me. i'm what the culture feeling. end quote. all right. now, art is not usually a competition. but we all have choices to make, from how we live to what we support. and even when it's boiled down to just picking sides, it can be more significant to look not

only at who you endorse because we're all going to make up our own minds and i encourage you to do that, but how are we getting there and are we communicating and figuring that out. do we define the values and criteria we use to make these choices, and do we figure out if those criteria and values are correct? or if they need to evolve. you know, this battle tested those values for many in real time. what happens in the culture matters, not only in the moment because we're here on the first draft of history, but often for years to come, especially for the next generation, shaping minds. a lot more people follow culture than news and politics. so when we have one of these big debates in real time, we should listen to each other and definitely to the next generation. what do people stand for? who do we oppose? why do you care? if they're not like us. and what do we want to be?

in the end, i told you before, lyrics are poetry. they can help us see and grow. some of these questions, how we answer them together are even more important than anything else in the debate. ♪tell me why♪ because it stinks. ♪have you tried downy rinse and refresh♪ it helps remove odors 3x better than detergent alone. it worked guys! ♪yeahhhh♪ downy rinse and refresh.

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we have been tracking a lot of breaking news from this trial, of course, to the madness in congress, to what i just discussed with you about what we might learn from culture. sometimes we like to broaden out farther. we heard from really interesting people at the top, from the supreme court to business to technology and even environmentalism. it's part of our summit series. we have something new we haven't aired for you yet, this look at when we heard from. >> being judgmental to me just means i have standards. >> let's go through it. they scream brace for impact. >> this is a real dr. jane

goodall barbie. >> a barbie doll that encourages little girls to think, i can do that. >> they scream wilson at me. >> they never get the whole story in the first year. >> brashness of youth to pursue ideas that seemed crazy at the time. >> they do scream run, forrest, run. >> turned out these beliefs worked really well. >> action leads to hope. >> massive societal change is 100% possible. >> if you really want to make a change, you cannot do it as an isolated individual. >> the truth is very rarely positive. >> i need somebody to say, it's okay that your perspective is different. >> i go to burning man every year. >> the only way to be successful in life is do what you love and love what you do. >> the greatest threat to free speech is -- >> thepublic not supporting it. >> failure to you means -- >> growth. >> not trying at all. >> you have to try harder next time. >> success means -- >> winning.

>> reaching the summit means -- >> trying harder every day. >> peace and fulfillment. >> i feel like i'm in the foothills. >> you have done something positive with the power the summit has given you. >> that i haven't got there yet, i hope. >> jane goodall hasn't gotten there, i love that answer and some of the others. you saw eric holder. you newest summit series interview is with supreme court justice breyer. go to msnbc.com/summit. msnbc.com/summit and you'll see jane, bill, fran, tom hanks, and so many more. check it out, you can also share them that way because they're youtube videos, easy to share with friends and family. "the reidout" with joy reid is up next. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> i'm fed up. i watch what happened to me and my company. i watched what