[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross ok. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. the 9th of may is a venerated day on the russian calendar in march the victory over fascism in europe in 1945. tragically the collective west just forgotten. the

cross talking victory de, i'm joined by my guest, laudermill goldstein in providence. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university. in belgrade we have steven guides. he is a research associate at build rates, institute of european studies ad in band, and we crossed to alexander markovich. he is head of the 2 vote off institute in vienna. right? gentleman cross lock rules and the fact that means he can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate vladimir, you were born in the soviet union. so i want to go down history lane since this is actually a program about history, a very important history for millions and millions of people around the world, particularly in russia. what was victory day like when you were living in the soviet union as well? it was, i'm really, really, you know, joyful a holiday. you know, 1st of all, there was a whole kind of glossed out of, you know, may, these may 1st, may, 2nd, may, may not. and so i really, it was like spring, everybody was celebrating and you know, there was, of course,

so it shouldn't be just sweet moments. my father was in the war and you know, they always, you know, when people get together there was a member of those google keel that who were not there with them. but still the mood was a very 1st year. you know, no school. you're going to watch amazing parade on the, on tv at 8 was you know, you can see, you know, people marching. so it was just a lot of a lot of lives, a lot of call lot, a lot of joy. you know, i, i don't know how many, you know, rations really is that moment solve and so you know, and started to use that or whatever. but it was like, we all knew, it was like, you know, bones that this is a very on foot. it'd be the, there's a new it in your bow, and so, you know, it that's come that's here again. and i'll talk about that later in the program here. because i want to talk about how the picture day is being read defined in a very good way. my opinion, steven, you know, in my introduction, the collective west is primarily overwhelmingly kind of forgotten this day,

this victory day on may 9th. why is that? okay. i mean, it is, they don't want to give credit to the soviet union slash russians and they have a fast, isn't problem. now in the west though, there's a lot of different avenues we could discuss when we talk about the app it be in the west. i think of the george or little gate, it was the answer. it is 1984, the ministry of truth is creating or recreating the boss. so that is why, because of the currents of political issues or political agendas, they are a minuscule in the middle of the soviet union. they don't want to mention that almost 30000000 a soviet, most the russian citizens died were killed or died liberating europe. and especially now that we have this revival of naziism in the,

in the west, in general, but especially on the european content 1st and started with the eastern europe. but then it spread. uh so uh, if the rumors are true, uh, the symbolism of the victory, the russian flags, soviets, flags, would it be banned in, in berlin for the 9th of may. but we'll see. anyways, uh there is a, is a issue that they have a problem with. and also uh well when we talk about historical revisionism, it is germany that is not as k that came out with a resolution that wants the slander ser herbs. and it was the germans who during world war 2 shots, thousands of. busy and i believe citizens, but also a screen children, especially in the,

in the safety of crowd we have us during world war 2. so uh now uh, with historical revisionism, his game to outrages levels. well, it's very interesting, alexander, when i was a young man. um, one of the most impressive documentary is i've ever seen up, up until today was the world, the war was made up by the b, b. c. and it was a brilliant, brilliant series. it primarily because it had witnesses, people that were actually witnessed the events making these kind of document present were very difficult because it can't really, you don't have witnesses that it's essentially been washed away. it's not on youtube anymore. when it was a got, it had millions of hits, it was one of the but i, i believe one of the greatest documents was ever made. but there was a 2 episodes in that documentary series that was, i guess you would say today was sympathetic to the soviet union. that's for bowden today. alexander. well, yes, um. as i mentioned before, there's

a certain political trends in the west which actually tries to diminish the soviet casualties. and um, also the soviet contribution to actually defeating fascism, the media and just story all christie. and therefore of course, for example, if you look at the change of the official narrative from the west, if you could somehow get the impression that it was actually not the soviet union fighting against hitler and the nazis. and while the 2 bots that there were some kind of ally of national socialism and fascism. yeah. instead it was just because of the united states of great britain, that fascist and was defeated, which is of course um, totally wrong. but since you don't all have dis weston, um, war of aggression against russia and um,

in this overall war. so ukraine of cause you're trying to keep an ice russia as much as possible. and um, this means also um, altering the history itself like um that before the ministry of truth is live and well again it seems and staff for us this strange kind off. um yeah. just to re policy um going on. no. the only drum any way or no, uh, no longer logs to show. so if you have the flex on the um associates, they are for 3, but uh where the drum and media, for example, also try to portray um, letting me put in as the 2nd the other fiddler. um yeah, us back in an hour or it's all a while the same germany that you're talking about is arming a fascist big battalions in, in your, in ukraine. so it absolutely. germany has a lot to it has a lot to answer for particularly today. okay. let me, you know,

one of the things that we've seen here is that when we look at the narrative of the destruction of fascism in europe, you have a, yeah, the hollywood version, saving private. ryan, the wars over after the invasion of normandy, apparently to hollywood. and then you have this very despicable trend of equating this, the soviet union. and nazi germany is being the same thing. both are historically obviously wrong. vladimir. yeah, he is being a user and unfortunately, and it was very, you know, very successful campaign i guess in the west, you know, we know by the side is surrender. they asked a french people that ride after the war. every contribution in the rush or what would be like, i can see that like the main can see the victory you move forward. 17 years ago, you know, the same ball and all of a sudden the same french people are saying that even right, united states, i mean contributor and i tell you a complete exec, i don't need any of those from my teaching to the where it is. you in the course

that he l o. place is on the russian culture and my quality historian says to the students, they were to talking about war 2. and that's a rush. one the war students look like with a big surprise. yeah. and he said, yeah, yeah, and brings always going to what was concrete, historical data that they had, you know, k, e, very young students that listen to that, then i am hanging out with my friends all university indicated. and they just refer to the zip is all they looked at me was of course, americans wonder what are you talking about. so these are them making things up as you know, i know i know this of that. so, but i would add that it is done for a very particular in the new, fairly, as in bed reason. because if you are the eyes of the russians last so many people in the, you know, such and such a major and the reason you're bound to take the country in the interest very seriously. you're bound to take very concerns about national security. or, you know, the safety of the board has to give you,

it gives you things that they didn't do is i really don't think it was used. and i think it's really kind of funny how the whole narrative shaped event. you know, now 1st of all, take the interest of jewish people serious me. they remember there was a photo of course. so this is taken seriously. but the last of forget about this is kind of really peculiar. so, you know, we won't bends over backwards to understand the drama still understand it isn't that there's all legitimate, it was what it was, you know, russia, what about the national goods and they've been, the board has been crossed again and again and again. but in reading your being forces, who is there? jessica, because i didn't was another option because initially they just avoid diminishes and, and just into and, you know, look, eyes on the gate, tweak now. russians do not. yeah, you know, as, as stephen, the, the historical fact is that the, the, the red army liberated all of the death camps and other camps as it moved west.

that history is being forgotten to steven. exactly. i mean, if you ask people, i remember personally, i was starting in the united states and i have these conversations of we were to and who was the greatest computer contributor? i was obviously saying it was the soviet union and people would laugh. i mean, they think that the war was one in the pacific. in babylon, on some islands, with drip out with japan and normandy, and the rest is a, is some blurry picture to doesn't really exist, especially the uh, the story with the death camps. deborah. oh, liberated by the soviet union. and this is why the holocaust ended when the red army entered these places. so up until they

were liberated the, the factories of that were working. and this is one of the, the low st greatest. uh uh, she went to terry and achievements during the war, but it is the only one of the episode and it is not only not recognized. uh, but uh, it seems that the sanctions, b, c of west against russia are going to be on today's moment. however, uh, by doing this uh, the mainstream western history obviously has isolated itself as the west has in general. well, what? well, what they do, we probably go to the rank here. they celebrate nazis and canada. we saw that. ok, we saw that in the end, and that's not going to be the end of a gentleman. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on victory de state without the

take a fresh look around his life. kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power. a good vision with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse who really would say better wills, and is it just because it shows you few fractured images presented as 1st? can you see through their illusion going underground can 1941 with the nazis health relation, ultra nationalists. the u astonishes, proclaimed the independent state of croatia. shortly off, the seizing palace. they built the scene of us concentration camp a place associated with the worst atrocities committed in yugoslavia during we'll go to use dash is use the cam system to isolate and exterminate subs, roma, jews,

and other non catholic minorities and political opponents of the fascist regime conditions in the san of us come with her renders the gods to which it to arise and the prisoners they send in the constitution temps. so most of them died 6 was incredible genocide. the welcome act across stock were all things are considered. non peter roosevelt's remind you were discussing victory day the okay, let's go back to alexandria, indiana. one of the interesting things here, since we're talking about history and history all graphy. and we look at the present day of the proxy war that is being waged against russia using ukraine. if we think back into 1941, when the soviet union was invaded,

nazi germany had an array of a co, a coalition of countries it occupied. it was allied with and it was a collective west, not the united states yet, but in the collective west, under the rule of the nazi germany invaded the soviet union. now let's go up to today. russia is facing a wide coalition of western countries, almost exactly the same ones. and it stand off over you crate a lot. you know, if you say that, that's all that's heresy for a lot of people. because, you know, with, with russia saying, and the bottom air is already touched upon and, you know, wave after wave. where is the of invasions, where do they come from? they come from the west is still head alexander. um, yes, exactly. i just recently watched um the great movie um, alexander, may i ask the buyers guy um eisenstein, which actually premier then 19 um, i guess it was 1941 um, shortly before the start of operation. but most of the not situation of the soviet

union, which actually had this very topic that there was a long history of westland aggression against russia. of course, coming from the west to russia because the west is not able to accept russia as the other as a different civilization. right. which is actually not itself and therefore it's, yeah, regularly you could say, tries to destroy russia to obliterate it, to colonize it. um, to carry the parts as we could see in all these plans about the so called the colonization of russia. and unfortunately, they're all of these plans of exterminating russian people as we could see. not only during then i've done aust bucks. also, during the see if puts machine since 2014 events in odessa,

what's happened then don't boss with domestic goes there. and yeah, that's what, of course, the west somehow tries to magnets. actually, this very fact that it's, that there is a long history of aggressions coming from the west to russia instead, of course, russia um is not to loosen aiding um, or insane if it says that it has the needs for security guarantees by the west that it has a need for peace in eastern europe and for security zone. and of course del for this 3 maybe is not directly repeating itself, but it's rhymes. as i said, there's, i don't see there's a real time running from the middle a just exactly what the nazi regression until no, no doubt that there is a pattern here. vladimir, it's very interesting. again, if you look at it, if you want to take history seriously. russia, what we to imperial russia, what we called russian today, is the only major land mass. the western powers never call in ice. and that is what

they see is a missed opportunity and they, they, they haven't given up on it. they, russia is the only one that stands out there was not colonized by an outside or vladimir. yeah, it's a unique civilization. there is a really good historian marshall ball and he wrote about that if you said yes it's and indeed is that, you know, a peculiar uh, unique cautions organization or which it didn't fall on the other risk than it's x . you know, you can look for either, you know, for most of it is age and older minds, indians, mexicans, and chinese. they all were crossed by the west and it was shaped in the there they own the image and likeness as opposed to roger who deals with usually goes into the, you know, tremendous efforts to defeat a, you know, a very innovative. and i would say with an ad to alexander, you're not allow alexander in the near you film these a on the 20 tonights, which in rate is the, you know,

arrives lands and in yesterday defeated all century they were actually related to this border of west, the night school in the 4th grade on their way to edward jerusalem. they actually 6 comes on general, but yeah, they just drop this off the ropes in house and that is what they did. so these are the say are very, you know, say we were getting and there also it sort of facility just to really just didn't mention over i should as well because it actually is your, you need a careful of fees. jayenne is so sort as ation religion. so somehow the rest feels very uncomfortable about it wasn't because the oldest invoice amount over sources and it is a model. yeah. although and, and it was like, you know, a very big interface. the more so for the west ramp and they continue to do that. so it's a lot of noise based on what you expect and that's paranoid, you know, saving again, broadly speaking, if we look at what would many would called the greatest hills of the,

of the 20th century fascism in for many people, communism fair enough here. but they're all what, those are western ideas, western ideas, they came from the west. unfortunately, it took cold in it, and i'm just expressing my opinion in russia. russia is recovered from that to monitors experience. but these are western ideas. they, russia, this had to confront. yeah. that is uh to uh, i'd like to go back to the, the issue of broader here a be a west of your vehicle is as a guest against russia. this is in a way, a unique situation that we are witnessing now that the west is almost completely united or completely united against russia. but it was not the 1st time all the 19th century, there was a try me, a war. look at the whole issue of a broader pollution of western countries, but also before that, the napoleonic wars, we always see it as the russians versus the french. but in fact,

the french army goes listed. busy of many odder western european peoples and, and small armies that were there were joining in. so in a sense, there is a cycle, a historical cycle of the computer that you mention ideas. these all is also very important because russia was before last 300 years. always. unfortunately, it's some kind of a, a cultural, he's a pre, uh, looking at the wise yes. and they don't get affected by the ideas that the crowds that i've actually be almost labeled through it. and i think that this is a peculiar moment to the sense that russia is finally awake. and, and i don't think that they will repeat the same pattern that started somewhere with the reforms of peter degrades. and the russia is basically, i think, coming back to itself. well i, in and out stephen, i to add to that i agree with you. absolutely. the difference is russia is

modernized itself, it's not it. and it disadvantages. like it was before, particularly as you brought up the cry, me in more, alexandra, i've lived here for 26 years and i studied european in russian history in a graduate school. and, you know, i always looked at the, the victory day may, 9th is during the soviet union is a legitimizing factor for the communist party. they won the war and they should get the credit. fair enough i, i'm not going to take away from that, but i think now in the 21st century a we've already touched upon in this program. this is also separate a celebration of values, and i would say conservative values also go ahead. alexander. yes, um, i would agree with you since of course the great picture of the board in russian historiography is um, connected with the defense of the model lines with the defense of russian solver

entity. and also of course was the defeat of fascism and definitely worse to defeat or from west than the aggression against russia. and just that for of course, it's not only an important day for russia about for yeah, most european countries. yeah, definitely. also because of months the ends of fascist months, there may be also the ordinary germans and all spencer suffert's from the consequences of the defeat of fascism. but i guess that's the wherever the feet of fascism itself is an important event. because unfortunately, neither a communist, smaller conservatives, and all students in germany were actually able to topple the hitler machine manufacturers and by themselves. so they needed this help from the outside. otherwise we would maybe still, if under, fast as through. and i guess therefore, it's also an important day for europe itself. yeah. well, why do i mean it should be, but it's not okay. because, you know,

you've been on this program many times and i always appreciated, but this is also a culture or the west. pres, rejects rushes culture and its attitudes and its value. so that's part of this proxy war against russian. vladimir. yeah, i mean is a, is there, is it, you know, with your order or witness, as of recently, you know, the approval by the, what in ukraine auto is a blue see, it's a performance. and so i can so authorize the form is a can. so it arises, got you, but it it, yeah. it was like, i remember was reading they had such a moment. usually they wanted to teach a course on the, on the say, yes you, they even really came up with the idea. maybe some of this, like, what do you mean is not the time this is like will classic list ever but your benefits, you know, i did, you know, i told this they ask you about the semester students. this is do the, i, as i open up the hippie, you know, we have the most popular courses in our department and other this semester it was wonderful story. you know, this is like universal list and it has to be any customized and appreciate it. but i would also say that to us also have to appreciate, you know, a west them,

but it is, there's, you know, we should just diminish it. i mean, these are the great was, was a very wise guy and come to global guy. he was probably 0 to rush up with you and use it to deal with the west to fly the where the has to have more than the more than this one that so why don't you have to be very kind of creative in this not, not you know not slavish, really repeating the rest of the presence which priority do not walk in. you know, raj, i just looked at a different piece. they thought the different culture, but to use them for a magically there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. and i think i would say that, you know, with some smart west and as extra understanding. and i know all the, you know, the caller id or for example, sustainable agriculture. what do we actively develop? i imagine, you know, scientists and i know it just grew up working. he was like very much, you know, very much, but they do it and they, and they know that and they're not. and so i think it's west and the prism logical actually should be problem. i'd have to, well you know i, i will what we have run out of time. i just, i wish the, the westwood act on its words. you know,

like except diversity. they don't accept diversity of it has a russian person characteristics with it. gentlemen, thank you very much. that's all the time we have one. i think my guess in providence be in it. and in belgrade, and of course i want to thank her yours for watching us here in our seats. so you next time, remember across the the,

[000:00:00;00] the, the rabbit collapse of the ottoman empire gave the arabs hope for independence. but the colonial power. so their future differently, great britain and france agreed on the seizure of the aeroplanes under the guise of the so called mandate of the league of nations. this bible play caused particular indignation in a rack, which was to get under the control of the british. in may 1921 rest with claim for independence broke out, both assuming and that she took part in it. soon the rallies turned into a real uprising against the invaders. more than 130000 people took up arms. britons urgently began to transfer reinforcements to a rack and used aircraft where it is war. secretary winston churchill birds the use

of chemical weapons against the rebels. and general ser, i own are held a border the destruction of any village where weapons were found. burning a village properly takes a long time, an hour or more according to size paulding recall cynically. in his memoirs, the media build girl, the paid off, the result was crush. however, separate his empire had to make serious concessions. in 1921, it recognized the solve the 1st as the king of a rag time gave part of the power to representatives of the local population via

racket. revolt marked the beginning of the national consolidation of the country and became an important milestone on the weight of the final independence. the, the on this monday. that's it. let me see if it's that then. yes, ma'am. so facade, indeed. and therefore, he would do it assuming that the to the and again i am in the title is the title i'm seeing send the most of the to d today at atlanta, most of the young the,

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